Posted on 05/06/2008 10:06:47 PM PDT by sevenbak
He wrote to me in all innocence, a reader from a Catholic country where Mormon missionaries had only recently begun to gather congregations of believers. "I asked my priest," he said, "and he told me that Mormons are a cult."
Setting aside the obvious riposte ("What did you think your priest would tell you, that Mormonism was true Christianity as restored by God to living prophets?"), I think it's worth considering just what we mean by "cult" and seeing whether it applies to the Mormon Church.
Cult as Bad Word
Anti-Mormons use "cult" the way gay activists use "homophobe"--as an ad hominem epithet hurled to try to silence any persuasive opponent whose ideas can't be countered on their merits.
When used this way, "cult" just means "religion I want you to fear so much you won't listen to them." Or even, "religion I want you to hate so much that you will remove it from the list of churches that deserve constitutional protection."
But just as "homophobe" has a core meaning (someone with a pathological fear of homosexuality to the degree that it interferes with his life), so also with "cult." The only reason it works as name-calling is because there really are religious groups that do--and should--scare us.
There are real examples of what we mean by cults: Jim Jones' group that destroyed itself in mass murder and suicide in Guyana, or those sneaker-wearing folks who killed themselves to join aliens approaching behind a comet. And even though the Branch Davidians may not have been as monstrous as they were depicted in the media, they still clearly fall within what we mean by that word.
What do they have in common?
Charismatic Founder. Cults gather around charismatic individuals who are the sole source of truth to their followers.
Exploitation. The leader enriches himself through the financial contributions of the members, or gathers personal power that he uses to exploit members in other ways to benefit himself. If the group survives the leader's death, it remains a cult if his successors continue that exploitation.
Automatons. The members are discouraged from thinking for themselves, and, insofar as possible, are turned into unquestioning "obedience machines."
Withdrawal and Isolation. Perhaps because exploitation and obedience are easiest to maintain when the ordinary world can't offer its distractions and attractions, cults tend to withdraw physically, seeking ever greater isolation. This is often used as part of the conversion process, to keep the prospective member from hearing counterarguments.
Are All Religions Cults?
It's worth pointing out that there are very few religions of any size or influence that did not begin with a charismatic founder and whose members did not seem, to outsiders, to behave in much the way I've just described. A humble, wise teacher can always be charged with "setting himself up as the sole source of truth" merely because he offers any unusual idea. The gathering of money to help the poor or pay for meetinghouses or publications can be called "exploitation." The natural desire of converts to live according to the teachings of their leader can look like lockstep blind obedience to those who live a different way. And if outsiders persecute the new religion, it is only natural that adherents will want to band together and get away, if only for a few hours at a time, to be able to practice their religion in peace.
All religions have a body of teachings that becomes a lens through which the believers see the world around them. To those who don't believe, the lens seems to be a distortion of reality--though of course, those unbelievers are merely distorting reality their own way, through their own lens. No one sees reality without passing the data through the lens of their own preconceptions.
All religions also form a community, however loosely organized, of like-minded believers who set the standard of correctness. Whether that standard is rigid or relaxed, those who cross it are expelled from the community and are treated as heretics, apostates, or infidels. Severe treatment of heretics can be found from the lowliest cult to the largest church, from the most rigid sect to "open"-minded, post-religious academia.
You have to get fairly close to a new religion in order to see whether it is acting like a cult or like a religion. Most of those who hurl the word "cult," however, do not bother to get close. And those who do are often so grimly determined to attack that they distort all evidence in order to support the charge.
How Does Mormonism Measure Up?
Joseph Smith was a charismatic leader, but he was murdered 156 years ago. Nowadays, we have leaders who, while sometimes gifted at communication, are rarely of the dramatic, movement-founding type. Indeed, I feel safe in saying that the majority in my lifetime have been rather dull and gray, and they are followed far more because of their office than because of any personal charisma.
Exploitation? As for exploitative leadership, this charge is absolutely false and always has been. Joseph Smith passed the money test with flying colors: He died poor and in debt, not because of profligate spending, but because any money that flowed into his hands flowed right back out again in attempts to benefit the saints and build the church.
In the years since, a handful of church offices have become salaried, but the salaries are merely enough to sustain normal family life. The perks of wealth are shunned even by those church leaders who were rich before being called to one of those rare salaried offices. And church leaders constantly struggle to eliminate the sycophancy, the cult of personality, and the general "sucking up" that are bound to arise in any hierarchical organization.
By any honest measure, Mormon church leaders, from Joseph Smith on, have a remarkable record of genuine humility. They really do try to be the servants rather than the masters of the saints. Automatons? Those who have actually lived in a Mormon ward--and especially those who have tried to lead a group of Mormons in any kind of activity--can all affirm one truth: Mormons may well be the most stubborn, independent-minded group of people ever assembled as a religious community.
Joseph Smith received a revelation that established the only style of leadership that actually works in the Mormon church (or, in the long run, anywhere): You can only lead by persuasion, by love, by patience, by your own willingness to learn from those you lead. Every now and then, some local Mormon leader will try to give orders or attempt to manipulate people into doing things his way. But he very quickly learns that the more he does that, the less obedient we Mormons become.
Far from being robots, most of us Mormons are, by inclination and by doctrine, determined to make up our own minds about everything. It's a core doctrine of Mormonism that each member of the church is personally and individually responsible for their own relationship with God.
Isolation? As for the cultish trait of isolating converts from any other influence, or brainwashing them till they can't think for themselves, our method of teaching would-be proselytes is the opposite. We usually teach them in their own homes. Our missionaries come for a little while and then leave them to themselves to read, ponder, and pray. We counter the attacks of anti-Mormons by telling the truth about our beliefs and practices, not by trying to cut off contact with our opponents.
Far from becoming isolated, a new convert to Mormonism is taught to be more respectful and loving to parents, spouse, children, and other family members and friends. They usually do better at their careers and education, and if withdrawal takes place it is because their new Mormon lifestyle and beliefs are rejected by their family or friends.
Kettles and Pots
On all these points, I daresay that the Mormon church is less cult-like than many of the religions that delight in calling us one.
Indeed, calling Mormonism a cult is usually an attempt to get people to behave like robots, blindly obeying the command that they reject Mormonism without any independent thought. Kettles, as they say, calling the pot black.
Here's the simplest statement I can make: If Mormonism were a cult, I would know it, and I would not be in it.
Yeah, I didn’t know that until Mitt ran, and all the hubbub.
Here’s an interesting and long list of famous Mormons.
There are enough strange doctrines in mormonism. Some of what you post is true some is not. Sevenbak's reply avoids answering your questions.
"I’ve heard that the Mormon religion requires practicing Mormons to divorce their spouses (and, of course, seek custody of kids) if the spouse leaves the religion. This is NOT a "doctrine" as such. However, there are many stories posted on web sites that indicate the individual who leaves the mormon church is divorced by his/her mate so that the other party may "find eternal marriage with a different "worthy" (as defined by mormons) mate".
" Mormon friends are to shun the apostate; And what friends would an apostate Mormon in a marriage have besides Mormons?"
Again, NOT official doctrine. However, this is a practice that occurs as those of us who are former mormons can personally verify. I do not know of a mormon leader advising against the practice of shunning, since "worthy" mormons are required to answer "temple recommend" questions in order to be allowed entry to their temples, such as No. 7 below. "Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?"
One must take part in performing ordinances only given in these temples as a requirement for "exaltation", mormonism's version of what Christians see as Heaven. As an aside, these same ordinances are performed by proxy for the dead in the temples
"Non-Mormon must be excluded even from witnessing Mormon marriages." True. Not only "non-mormons" but the mormons who fail the entrance test described in the temple recommend questions below, are refused entry to the weddings of friends and families, including parents and children of the couple. The practice has been for those excluded from the ceremony to wait around to be included in the family pictures following.
1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?
2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?
3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?
4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?
5 Do you live the law of chastity?
6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?
7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?
9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?
10 Are you a full-tithe payer?
11 Do your keep the Word of Wisdom?
12 Do you have financial or other oblgations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?
13 If you have previously received your temple endowment:
Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?
14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?
15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?
Is she married to a Mormon? I was just pointing that out because Larry King is an unbeliever.
Yes, she’s LDS.
I too have siblings who are not members of the church. There are “mixed marriages” so to speak in my own family.
My son’s best friend is Catholic, and they play together nearly every day, usually at their house. I’m not sure what all the hubbub is about associating with those not of our faith. Christ never taught this, and most Mormons I know don’t act like that. Sure, there are some, but still...
I think it depends on how you interpret the religion. I’ve known Catholics who shunned divorced family members or family who married divorcees. My own family whispered about one of the in-laws being a secret Jew.
I have found that Mormons condemn kids leaving the church and heap more heavily on them for joining another church. Unfortunately I’m seeing that first hand these days. Protestant churches will sometimes engage in this behavior so it isn’t just Mormons.
You're kidding me. You know God so thoroughly because a guy found some dinner plates in 1823? So for 1800 years, we've all got it wrong, including the Old Testament, the Gospels, Church Fathers, and some of the greatest minds the world has known? Gee, thanks for saving me from my ignorance.
In the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Thanks... that was helpful. But in a sense, I now realize that I did sorta have a good shot at the answer already:
The doctrine of celestial marriage states that only those who are bound in celestial marriage can achieve the highest levels of Heaven. Also, anyone who isn’t Mormon is going straight to Hell, since all other churches are of the “great apostasy.” So any marriage to a non-believer will deprive the Mormon of the highest heaven. So even if there is not an obedience which calls for divorce, one can infer that it must be God’s will.
(Contrast this with Catholicism which holds that love expended in such a marriage will not only help the Christian draw closer to Christ, but also serves as a sign of hope for the salvation of the non-believer.)
Or am I wrong? I admittedly know little about Mormonism that I didn’t learn in response to FR posts. It *is* true that Mormonism doesn’t hold the same horror for divorce that Catholicism (formally) does, isn’t it? Is there some other doctrine I don’t know about that throws a chink into my logic?
Juxtapose the definition of the word cult with the definition of the word religion. Is it Kettles and Pots?
The noun Cult means:
1. a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
1. b. The followers of such a religion or sect.
2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.
5. a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
5. b. The object of such devotion.
6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.
The noun religion means:
1. a. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
1. b. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.
So...
Other than current day polygamy, how are the LDS doctrines and practices different than the FLDS doctrines and practices?
The FLDS claim that they follow Joseph Smith more closely than the LDS...do you disagree? If so, why?
THE SPIRIT WORLD AND THE THREE DEGREES OF GLORY.
"When mortals complete their sojourn on earth and pass through the portal called death, they enter the postmortal spirit world. As part of the Plan of Salvation, the Lord set a time between death and the resurrection when men and women can continue their progression and further learn principles of perfection before they are brought to the final judgment (Alma 40:6-21). Jesus Christ went to the postmortal spirit world while his body lay in the tomb to preach the gospel to them (1 Pet. 3:19-20; 4:6; D&C 138:11-37) so that those spirits in the postmortal spirit world could hear and accept or reject the gospel.
Since baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost, temple Endowment, and sealing are earthly ordinances, Latter-day Saints perform the ordinances vicariously for the dead in their temples (see ). Because individuals differ so widely in their obedience to God's commandments, LDS theology rejects the traditional Christian concepts of the single option of heaven or hell in explaining the final destiny of souls (see ). Through a vision given to the Prophet Joseph Smith (D&C 76), the Lord has shown, as he also revealed to Paul, that there are several degrees of glory in mankind's eternal reward (D&C 76; cf. 1 Cor. 15:42).
The Plan of Salvation was created by the Father, brought into reality by the atoning sacrifice of his Beloved Son, and facilitated by the gifts of the Holy Ghost. It embraces the Creation, the Fall, and the Atonement, including the , and sweeps across all time from the to the final state of immortality and eternal life"
It *is* true that Mormonism doesn’t hold the same horror for divorce that Catholicism (formally) does, isn’t it?
No, because to mormonism, there are other "sins" that keep a soul from attaining "exaltation", commission of which keep mormons from being allowed entry into the temples where the required ordinances are performed. Divorce is not noted among them.
Charismatic Founder- Yep, their pastor is very charismatic.
Exploitation- They require members to serve in the church, to do Thursday night visitation (knocking on random doors witnessing), they must serve in missions or must house visiting missionaries. They must tithe ten percent. And they must serve in community ministries. This is a hard one, but some would say yes to this one too.
Automatons- These are KJV onlyists. Women must wear dresses even though the most popular thing for men to wear seem to be bib overalls. They are not allowed to dance, drink or listen to secular music and a long list of other things. And they must attend church at least four times a week. I would say yes to this one too.
Withdrawal and Isolation- They spurn television and movies. They cannot enter a place that sells alcoholic beverages, even Walmart. They do not send their children to public schools. Church activities keep them fairly busy most weeks and when they have revivals or missionaries who are practicing preaching, it is an all week long thing. So again yes.
So it looks like my daughter belongs to a cult. A Independent Fundamentalist Baptist Cult.
Online Etymology Dictionary
"second person of the Christian Trinity," from Gk. logos "word, speech, discourse," also "reason," from PIE base *leg- "to collect" (with derivatives meaning "to speak," on notion of "to pick out words"); used by Neo-Platonists in various metaphysical and theological senses and picked up by N.T. writers.
Greek philosophers were great in many ways, but their understanding of the true nature of God was off the mark. Unfortunately, it corrupted the early christian understanding of the nature of God as well.
However, Joseph Smith (pbuh) did get something of great value, then and now, out of his charismatic leadership - except it wasn't measured in dollars.
His polygamy was the living out of a common male fantasy, made possible by the devotion of his followers.
Jesus said “If you have seen me, you have seen the Father”
Yes, Jesus has a body, just like God.
Genesis 1
26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Perhaps you don't have a body, parts or passions, but I'm guessing do. :-)
Can you attend your daughter’s wedding?
Ok, so the Greek philosophers corrupted John's thought too? Does that mean his Gospel is not inspired? Also, you really believe that Christ's Church was in error for 1800 years until Joe Smith found the plates? Despite Jesus's promise that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail?
Only “open” LDS Religion Forum threads have been transferred to the News Forum. It was a temporary response to the “Mormon bashing” that resulted from the FLDS raid.
I wouldn’t take much stock in that Genesis depiction. It is fraught with entanglements.
That's a trick question, as we believe Christ's church was gone with the death of the last apostle.
Despite Jesus's promise that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail?
We believe the restoration of Christ's church is a fulfillment of that promise.
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