Posted on 05/04/2008 11:36:24 PM PDT by sevenbak
As we commemorate the birth of Jesus Christ two millennia ago, we offer our testimony of the reality of His matchless life and the infinite virtue of His great atoning sacrifice. None other has had so profound an influence upon all who have lived and will yet live upon the earth.
He was the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New. Under the direction of His Father, He was the creator of the earth. “All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made” (John 1:3). Though sinless, He was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. He “went about doing good” (Acts 10:38), yet was despised for it. His gospel was a message of peace and goodwill. He entreated all to follow His example. He walked the roads of Palestine, healing the sick, causing the blind to see, and raising the dead. He taught the truths of eternity, the reality of our premortal existence, the purpose of our life on earth, and the potential for the sons and daughters of God in the life to come.
He instituted the sacrament as a reminder of His great atoning sacrifice. He was arrested and condemned on spurious charges, convicted to satisfy a mob, and sentenced to die on Calvary’s cross. He gave His life to atone for the sins of all mankind. His was a great vicarious gift in behalf of all who would ever live upon the earth.
We solemnly testify that His life, which is central to all human history, neither began in Bethlehem nor concluded on Calvary. He was the Firstborn of the Father, the Only Begotten Son in the flesh, the Redeemer of the world.
He rose from the grave to “become the firstfruits of them that slept” (1 Corinthians 15:20). As Risen Lord, He visited among those He had loved in life. He also ministered among His “other sheep” (John 10:16) in ancient America. In the modern world, He and His Father appeared to the boy Joseph Smith, ushering in the long-promised “dispensation of the fulness of times” (Ephesians 1:10).
Of the Living Christ, the Prophet Joseph wrote: “His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
“I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father” (D&C 110:3–4).
Of Him the Prophet also declared: “And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!
“For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—
“That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God” (D&C 76:22–24).
We declare in words of solemnity that His priesthood and His Church have been restored upon the earth—“built upon the foundation of … apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone” (Ephesians 2:20).
We testify that He will someday return to earth. “And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together” (Isaiah 40:5). He will rule as King of Kings and reign as Lord of Lords, and every knee shall bend and every tongue shall speak in worship before Him. Each of us will stand to be judged of Him according to our works and the desires of our hearts.
We bear testimony, as His duly ordained Apostles—that Jesus is the Living Christ, the immortal Son of God. He is the great King Immanuel, who stands today on the right hand of His Father. He is the light, the life, and the hope of the world. His way is the path that leads to happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come. God be thanked for the matchless gift of His divine Son.
I'm sorry, but you forgot a little asterisk there: The Jesus of Mormonism didn't create ALL things as the true historical Jesus did (Heb 1; John 1; Col. 1:16-17...see even D&C 93:9-10), who created the angels--even Lucipher. (The Jesus of Mormonism is a spirit brother of Jesus.)
We...testify that His life...neither began in Bethlehem nor concluded on Calvary. He was the Firstborn of the Father, the Only Begotten Son in the flesh...
The Mormon "Christ" is a pre-existent spirit, they say, like you or me...whose difference is...
(a) mere birth order--having been first;
(b) was twice made a son of God via Mary; and
(c) died for Adam's sin so folks could be resurrected (his role as Savior).
This Messiah was born in Bethlehem as the Bible foretold and affirmed post-birth--not like the Mormon Jesus of Mormon Scriptures born in Jerusalem.
Other than that, he was not the Son of God from eternity past. He worked his way up to godhood status. He's not an exalted God-become-man, but an exalted man-become-God. He was an elder spirit bro of Lucipher. Had you or your brother been "first" in that pre-existent spirit world birth order, he could have been Christ!!!
This Jesus is foreign to the Bible. The Messiah of the Bible shared the glory with the Father in the beginning (John 17). This Jesus is THE Son of God, not just a son of God. And THE Son of God did not consider equality with His Father something he couldn't let go of while becoming a man (see Philippians 2). Phil. 2 makes it clear He was already divine, not just a "wannabe" God like Dear Ole Dad.
The Mormon Christ is but a "saved being"--a mere creature like dear ole Dad:
"Christ is a saved being” (McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p 257) “Modern revelation speaks of our Lord as he that ‘ascended up on high, as also he descended below all things, in that he comprehended all things, that he might be in all and through all things, the light of truth ‘ (D&C 88:6). Christ's rise to the throne of exaltation was preceded by his descent below all things. Only by submitting to the powers of demons and death and hell could he, in the resurrection, serve as our exemplar of a saved being, one who had placed all things beneath his feet. ‘I am Alpha and Omega,’ he said, ‘Christ the Lord; yea, even I am he, the beginning and the end, the Redeemer of the world. I, having accomplished and finished the will of him whose I am, even the Father, concerning me—having done this that I might subdue all things unto myself—retaining all power, even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world, and the last great day of judgment.’ (D&C 19:1-2.)” (McConkie and Millet, Doctrinal Commentary on the Book of Mormon, vol. 1, p. 234)
(Please also see McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Vol. 3, p. 238 where he said Jesus "Needs salvation...Came to earth to work out His own salvation”)
The real Christ is the Savior of the world: And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. (1 John 4:14)
The Mormon Christ is one savior among many:
"...we are the only people that know how to save our progenitors, how to save ourselves, and how to save our posterity in the celestial kingdom of God;...we in fact are the saviours of the world..." (Journal of Discourses, vol.6, p.163).
No, "saviors of the world" are not plentiful (1 John 4:14; John 4:42).
...Redeemer of the world
This Jesus didn't atone for sins by sweating blood in the garden; He did it on Calvary as the Bible proclaimsThis Jesus really didn't die for our personal sins or our rebellious nature...cause when we get to Mormon heaven men are subject to punishment for their own sins--not Jesus [LDS second article of faith: "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression." The flip side of this belief is that Jesus wasn't punished for our sins--men will be...Jesus was simply punished for Adam's sin to release us to "free agency."] .
This Jesus' blood was powerful enough not only to atone for Adam's sin, but mine. I have his rich blood streak running over every part of my sinful body, my sinful mind, my sinful soul, my sinful spirit. I am drenched in His blood; saturated in it; bathed in it. It cleanses me entirely of all past sins, my present sins, and every sin I'll commit (or action I'll fail to responsibly commit) because I entrust that His blood is sufficient for me. His blood, His mercy, His grace makes me "worthy"--tho the fact that He went to the cross for me shows my ultimate value. Like any heir, I'm an heir by His death and His gift to me...NOT an heir based upon my works, my obedience, my worthiness, my commandment-keeping, my temple recommend, my Word-of-wisdom keeping, my exaltation checklist, who I marry, if I marry, and all the other plural "My-s" I can ever list--as if my life was to center on me and not the One I serve.
Not so with Brigham Young's Jesus. (And BY is not simply a yesteryear "nobody"; his very name is the hallmark of LDS' brightest and best in their young generation). The Jesus of Brigham's poured forth only anemic blood--blood so weak that it couldn't cover all men's sin...which is why Brigham developed the teaching of "blood atonement." (not an official doctrine of the LDS church, but still a teaching taught by the then living LDS “prophet” of God…a doctrine, BTW, downplayed by contemporary LDS leaders, but never formally condemned).
...ministered among other sheep in ancient America (John 10:16)
No, John 10:16 doesn't say a word about "ancient America." (Mormons greatly confuse John 10, anyway, like the way Brigham Young butchered John 10:7-9 by inserting Joseph Smith as the "entrance" to heaven for people...whereas John 10:7-9 clearly shows Jesus as the Gate & Door:
I can tell our beloved brother Christians who have slain the Prophets and butchered and otherwise caused the death of thousands of Latter-day Saints...something that no doubt will mortify them—something that, to say the least, is a matter of deep regret to them—namely, that NO man or woman in this dispensation will EVER enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. (Brigham Young, tabernackle remarks, Oct. 9, 1859, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 289)
Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture. (John 10:7-9)
Marion Romney (LDS First Presidency) said, "This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life" (Conference Report, April, 1961, pg. 119).
No, there is NO substitute for Christ! Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (John 14:6)
Of the Living Christ, the Prophet Joseph wrote: “His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying: “I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father” (D&C 110:3–4).
Smith plagiarized the exact description from Rev. 1:14-15, 11 so he could make it sound like he was giving a personal eyewitness account. Here's Rev. 1 to compare to D&C 110:3-4: His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last...(Rev. 1:14-15, 11)
The statement says: “That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God” (D&C 76:22–24).
Yes, but the Mormon Jesus didn't create these worlds from nothing like the God of the Bible. (See Hebrews 11:3).
His priesthood and His Church have been restored upon the earth—“built upon the foundation of … apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone” (Ephesians 2:20).
Uhhh...the foundation didn't ever need a "RE-foundation!" The foundation of Eph. 2:20 was promised to hold fast with a one-time (only) delivery: ...it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was ONCE delivered unto the saints. (Jude 3)
"We're locked into the restoration and the experiences of Joseph Smith," said Elder M. Russell Ballard, a senior leader of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
(Uh, yeah, we know)
The Mormon Christ is the Christ who abandons His people, whereas the real Christ is the Ever-Present One who built a hell-resistant church.
Joseph Smith’s boast: "I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, NOR JESUS ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet." (History of the Church, Volume 6, Chapter 19, Page 408)
Question: Is Jesus a liar when he told the disciples in giving the Great commission of Matthew 28:20 that He would " be with them always? to the end of the age" [Oh, yeah. I forgot. LDS do consider Jesus to be such a liar...since they claim the Jesusless church leaders fully apostatized from being the Church...Orson Pratt has already authoritatively settled what the LDS opinion is of Jesus and Matthew 16:18 with this LDS general authority teaching:
The gates of hell have prevailed and will continue to prevail over the Catholic mother of harlots, and over all her Protestant daughters; but as for the apostolical Church of Christ, she rests secure in the mansions of eternal happiness, where she will remain until the apostate Catholic church, with all her popes and bishops, together with all her harlot daughters shall be hurled down to hell... (Orson Pratt’s Works, p. 189-190...Pratt was an LDS apostle)
The real truth is that Jesus is a Safekeeper: While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. (John 17:12)
Listen, whatever church Jesus Christ said he was building in Matthew 16:18, it wasn't going to be a shabby structure, which the LDS directly accuse Jesus of building. It wasn't going to "go to pot" in 300+ or even 1800 years, like the LDS commonly accuse Jesus of doing. In fact, the force of the future tense from this passage depicts a mighty, strong church--and one so sustained by an Almighty, strong Christ who PROMISED to be ALWAYS present (Matt. 28:20)—along with an always-present Holy Ghost (John 14:16). In fact, Rev. 20:8-9 says this Church will never be overthrown.
Whereas for Christians, Jesus is the Living Prophet in these "latter days" (Hebrews 1:1-2) whose word remains true, Mormons come up with pinch-hitter "prophets" inserted in place of Jesus! Why, Mormons won't even pray directly to Jesus! [Even tho the Nephite disciples reportedly repeatedly did so in 3 Nephi!!!] Some Mormons won't worship Jesus, saying they worship only Heavenly Father (these Mormons want to be strict monotheists like those in the Bible)
So LDS...
(a) ...don't acknowledge Jesus as their prophet...they assign that role to Monson & a number of dead guys...(My "Prophet" is still alive & still revealing HIMSELF)
(b) ...don't pray directly to Jesus (I pray to Him AND through Him);
(c) ...Some Mormons openly acknowledge even on FReeper Web sites that they don't WORSHIP Jesus (I worship HIM); and...
(d) ...LDS apostle Bruce McConkie told BYU students in a devotion not to seek a special relationship with Jesus! (Christians intimately relate to Jesus!) McConkie also said: We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense--the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator. (March, 1982)
(Wow! What's left for Jesus to be and to do in the Mormon church?)
The Flying Inmans take to the skies to fly the Ilky Way! (John 14:6)
Add to that no cross, water instead of wine/juice for communion and no eternal security.
When I was a Mormon they were using leavened bread and water. Actually it was Weber's Bread and Tap Water. We'd peel off the crust so that it would be all "white and delightsome."
I wonder if they are still using Weber's bread, or if they have changed to unleavened bread? Does anyone have any information on that?
They still use white leavened bread, but in Utah it is Wonder Bread. I’ve never heard of Weber’s Bread.
He lives..indeed.
And I worship Him...openly and in private daily.
Does the mormon church do that?
Their history is quite muddy there......
When you go to church do you praise Jesus in your worship? In your songs?
Or do you sing to J. Smith, and other men?
Actually come to think of it, it may have been Wonder Bread.
Maybe I had Weber's Milk on my mind.
Weber's milk seems to be the best milk I have found in Southern Utah. In California the best milk is Knudsen's. But I digress.
Wonder bread?
That’s funny. I mean, the entire Mormon church in Utah uses the same type of bread?
Did Jesus ask Mary to make Wonder Bread for him? Did Emma Smith have Mary’s recipe? Is there some sort of doctrine in the Book of Mormon which states which type of bread must be used in communion with the Lord?
Jesus traveled extensively and ate with numerous people. I doubt He felt a need to decree which type of bread the Christians should use. If he had, it would have been clearly stated in the Old Testament.
Communion is simply an act that shows obedience to Christ’s teachings. If we homogenize the bread and turn the water to wine, I think we have sorely missed the point. It isn’t the type of wine or flavor of drink that is important. It is the remembering of Christ and the symbols that He gave us.
<-— wine to water -—> reverse what I wrote.
Jesus turned water to wine. The Mormon church uses water in place of wine.
Again, it’s all symbolic, of course.
Well aside from the "Praise to the Man" hymn Mormons sing to Joseph Smith, I would just say that the whole of worship gets mighty confusin' for Mormons.
For example, a day or two before the following very recent post, an LDS FReeper said he worshipped Jesus Christ. Then Fproy2222 said: We do not worship Joseph Smith. We worship the Father. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2010956/posts?q=1&;page=81 [and Fproy is representing the most standard LDS position here]
But how many (true) gods are worshiped in the Bible? (One according to Jews & Christians)
How many (true) gods are worshiped in the Book of Mormon? (Two according to the Mormon definition of Heavenly Father and Jesus being two separate gods).
How many (true) gods are worshiped according to their LDS apostle's "Mormon Doctrine" 1966 book? (Three according to the Mormon definition of Heavenly Father and Jesus and the Holy Ghost being three separate gods): "Three separate personages--the Father, Son and Holy Ghost--comprise the Godhead...To us, speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the only gods we worship." (Mormon Doctrine, pp. 567-577, 1966 edition)
Oh, wait a minute. (I should have kept reading). McConkie, on p. 848, only emphasizes worshiping two gods: "The Father and the Son are the objects of all true worship....No one can worship the Father without also worshiping the Son....It is proper to worship the Father, in the name of the Son, and also to worship the Son" (McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 848).
Oh, wait. McConkie changes his mind by 1982, when he gives a devo @ BYU (March 2, 1982, "Our Relationship with the Lord") Essentially, McConkie wasn't happy with either his "3" god or "2" god worship. So he came up with a kind of 1 1/2-god worship:
We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense--the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator.
His only problem is that neither the Bible (example God tells the angels to worship Him in Heb. 1:6) and even the Book of Mormon know of either a reserved for-the-Father-only worship. (Nor does the BoM recognize "applause" worship like McConkie prescribed to later in his life...see, for example, 2 Nephi 25:29 below). From the Book of Mormon:
4 Nephi 4:37: Therefore the true believers in Christ, and the true worshipers of Christ, (among whom were the three disciples of Jesus who should tarry) were called Nephites, and Jacobites, and Josephites, and Zoramites.
2 Nephi 25:29 And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.
3 Nephi 11:17 Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him.
3 Nephi 17:10 And they did all, both they who had been healed and they who were whole, bow down at his feet, and did worship him;
Is this Mormon “Jesus” the same Jesus of history?
“It is true that many of the Christian churches worship a different Jesus Christ than is worshipped by the Mormons.” – LDS publication, Ensign Magazine, May 1977, p. 26
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I’ve used wheat bread, white bread, even sourdough on occasion.
I’m curious as to the belief by some here that flat unleavened bread outside of the Jewish Passover is the norm?
I believe that.
I’m curious as to the belief by some here that flat unleavened bread outside of the Jewish Passover is the norm?
Because it is the norm. Jesus is the Passover sacrifice. It was during passover that he had the last supper. The Last supper was UNLEAVENED BREAD and WINE, not "white and delightsome" crustless yeast filled leavenated Wonder Bread and tap water.
Jesus BROKE the bread. He didn't tear it or cut it with a knife. The bread was BROKEN. Try breaking a piece of Wonder Bread.
Under what authority does the LDS Church use water and Wonder Bread? Was this one of your continuing REVELATIONS that you claim? Is the use of Tap Water and Wonder bread revealed in the D&C or the Pearl of Great Price?
Under what authority?
D&C 27
1 LISTEN to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Lord, your God, and your Redeemer, whose word is quick and powerful.
2 For, behold, I say unto you, that it mattereth not what ye shall eat or what ye shall drink when ye partake of the sacrament, if it so be that ye do it with an eye single to my glory—remembering unto the Father my body which was laid down for you, and my blood which was shed for the remission of your sins.
3 Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, that you shall not purchase wine neither strong drink of your enemies;
4 Wherefore, you shall partake of none except it is made anew among you; yea, in this my Father’s kingdom which shall be built up on the earth.
5 Behold, this is wisdom in me; wherefore, marvel not, for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with Moroni, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the Book of Mormon, containing the fulness of my everlasting gospel, to whom I have committed the keys of the record of the stick of Ephraim;
6 And also with Elias, to whom I have committed the keys of bringing to pass the restoration of all things spoken by the mouth of all the holy prophets since the world began, concerning the last days;
7 And also John the son of Zacharias, which Zacharias he (Elias) visited and gave promise that he should have a son, and his name should be John, and he should be filled with the spirit of Elias;
8 Which John I have sent unto you, my servants, Joseph Smith, Jun., and Oliver Cowdery, to ordain you unto the first priesthood which you have received, that you might be called and ordained even as Aaron;
9 And also Elijah, unto whom I have committed the keys of the power of turning the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the hearts of the children to the fathers, that the whole earth may not be smitten with a curse;
10 And also with Joseph and Jacob, and Isaac, and Abraham, your fathers, by whom the promises remain;
11 And also with Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days;
12 And also with Peter, and James, and John, whom I have sent unto you, by whom I have ordained you and confirmed you to be apostles, and especial witnesses of my name, and bear the keys of your ministry and of the same things which I revealed unto them;
13 Unto whom I have committed the keys of my kingdom, and a dispensation of the gospel for the last times; and for the fullness of times, in the which I will gather together in gone all things, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth;
14 And also with all those whom my Father hath given me out of the world.
15 Wherefore, lift up your hearts and rejoice, and gird up your loins, and take upon you my whole armor, that ye may be able to withstand the evil day, having done all, that ye may be able to stand.
16 Stand, therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, having on the breastplate of righteousness, and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace, which I have sent mine angels to commit unto you;
17 Taking the shield of faith wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked;
18 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of my spirit, which I will pour out upon you, and my word which I reveal unto you, and be agreed as touching all things whatsoever ye ask of me, and be faithful until I come, and ye shall be caught up, that where I am ye shall be also. Amen.
Which enemies are those?
Poison in the wine, oldest trick in the book. There’s a reason nobility used to and still do have wine tasters. We live in much different times now than the early 1800’s.
I guess Jesus forgot that Elijah and Elias were the same person, huh?
Which enemies are those?
Remind me to never go drinking with you. ;-)
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