Posted on 05/04/2008 2:50:26 PM PDT by sevenbak
This is not a restoration of an ancient church, Mormonism is a cult, not Christianity, and is a direct contradiction to Scripture:
Galatians 1:
6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
Joseph Smith’s version brought ANOTHER gospel, and they even use those words sometimes.
I would ask, “Where’s the barf alert?” but have been scolded for doing so on another religious thread. But still ...
Bottom line - Mormon doctrine teaches another Jesus; NOT the Christ of the Bible.
In a nutshell.
Yes, and there is a word to use, and I am NOT afraid to use it, even if everyone else is. HERESY. the word is HERESY!
Believing that ANYTHING foisted on mankind by Joseph Smith is from God is akin to holding Papal Infallibility as God breathed.
Let’s not forget APOSTATE either.
If so, how what must I do in order to achieve god-hood?
I won't be debating on this thread, it's information to those with less than informed views.
"There are 30 thousand plus different Christian religions...
They are denominations, but all Christian, unlike the LDS.
LMAO!!
No they don't confirm LDS views,Dear Friend, and there was no full cannonized Bible before the 4th century either.
Mormonism is just another group of the 30,000 you mention that interpret the Bible outside of what the early Church believed
Joseph Smith copied much of Platonism ,not early Christianity
Smith did NOT believe what the early Christians believed of the 1st thru 3rd century., oo
Lets take a look
The early Christians KNEW Jesus was God
“For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God.” Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 121 (A.D. 155).
“But nothing exists, the cause of whose existence is not supplied by God. Nothing, then, is hated by God, nor yet by the Word. For both are one—that is, God.” Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, I:8 (A.D. 202).
“For God did not stand in need of these [beings], in order to the accomplishing of what He had Himself determined with Himself beforehand should be done, as if He did not possess His own hands. For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, ‘Let Us make man after Our image and likeness;’ He taking from Himself the substance of the creatures [formed], and the pattern of things made, and the type of all the adornments in the world.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4,20:1 (A.D. 180).
“Now the person in each declares the independent being and subsistence. But divinity is the property of the Father; and whenever the divinity of these three is spoken of as one, testimony is borne that the property of the Father belongs also to the Son and the Spirit: wherefore, if the divinity may be spoken of as one in three persons, the trinity is established, and the unity is not dissevered; and the oneness Which is naturally the Father's is also acknowledged to be the Son's and the Spirit's.” Gregory the Wonderworker (Thaumaturgus), Sectional Confession of Faith, 8 (A.D. 270).
The Early Christians called the Church Catholic (NOT Morman)
“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).
“[A]ll the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished.” Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2 (A.D. 155).
“…to be in honour however with the Catholic Church for the ordering of ecclesiastical discipline...one to the Laodicenes, another to the Alexandrians, both forged in Paul's name to suit the heresy of Marcion, and several others, which cannot be received into the Catholic Church; for it is not fitting that gall be mixed with honey. The Epistle of Jude no doubt, and the couple bearing the name of John, are accepted by the Catholic Church...But of Arsinous, called also Valentinus, or of Militiades we receive nothing at all.” The fragment of Muratori (A.D. 177).
“[N]or does it consist in this, that he should again falsely imagine, as being above this [fancied being], a Pleroma at one time supposed to contain thirty, and at another time an innumerable tribe of Aeons, as these teachers who are destitute of truly divine wisdom maintain; while the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:10,3 (A.D. 180).
“For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago,—in the reign of Antoninus for the most part,—and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherus, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled.” Tertullian, On the Prescription Against Heretics, 22,30 (A.D. 200).
”Whence you ought to know that the bishop is in the Church, and the Church in the bishop; and if any one be not with the bishop, that he is not in the Church, and that those flatter themselves in vain who creep in, not having peace with God's priests, and think that they communicate secretly with some; while the Church, which is Catholic and one, is not cut nor divided, but is indeed connected and bound together by the cement of priests who cohere with one another.” Cyprian, To Florentius, Epistle 66/67 (A.D. 254).
Now lets see How Smith copied Platonism
Pre-existence of soul- what did Plato teach?
Plato (427-347 B.C.E.) was aware that the world of sense and sense objects is in a state of continuous change. From the fact of continuous change he concluded that there is nothing real and stable in the sense world. The universal ideas, however, have a content which is stable, real, unchangeable, eternal; the knowledge acquired through universal ideas is truly “science”...
Hence, the existence of universal ideas in the human minds demands the existence of a supra-mundane world of pure essences, which are stable, real, unchangeable, and eternal and of which the universal ideas of man are a true representation. These pure essences Plato called Ideas.
The Ideas alone have reality in the strict sense; they exist as real entities (noumena) apart from the world of sense (phenomena). The objects of the sense world are but faint, changing replicas or imitations of the eternal, unchanging Ideas; the Ideas are the eternal prototypes or exemplars of the objects of the sense world.”
What did Smith say?
The LDS Book of Abraham teaches the doctrine of pre-existence of the soul (in addition to other Greek doctrines). Platonism teaches pre-existence through its theory of “Forms” or “Ideas”. Similarly, the Atomists of ancient Greece taught the eternity of atoms and the atomic composition of the soul, doctrines also taught bey the LDS religion. So we see that the Mormon religion, in regard to the doctrine of pre-existence, bases itself squarely on the teachings of Plato and other Greek philosophers.
Lets take a look at the LDS book of Abraham..
“Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was made; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones; and God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born” (Abraham 3:22-23.
Here is what the Early Christians said..
Origen, De Principiis 2:8:3
“We may perhaps hazard a guess” that the soul had a pre-mortal fall. (in Bettenson, The Early Christian Fathers, page 207).
Note that when Origen talks about pre-existence, he is referring to angels, not to the souls of humans!!! Because Mormons are caught up in this idea of “eternal progression” they can’t seem to distinguish the two. The Clementien Recognitions 2:60 in ANF 8:114 specifically rejected the idea of a pre-cosmic fall.
Origen, Commentary on John 2:25 in ANF 10:340
Here Origen speculates that John the Baptist may have been an angel before his mortal birth. Even if this were the case (and there is no reason to believe it), it does not mean that the soul of man is created before his conception. Here is the quote: “we ask if it can be one of the holy angels who is sent down on this ministry as forerunner of our Saviour.”
In any case the word angel here many not even refer to the spirit being.
Clement of Alexandria (Origen’s teacher) in commenting on Jeremiah 1:5 wrote (The Instructor 1:7 in ANF 2:224):
“But the Lord hath also said in Jeremiah: ‘Say not that I am a youth: before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, and before I brought the out of the womb I sanctified thee.’ Such allusions prophecy can make to us, destined in the eye of God to faith before the foundation of the world; but now babes, through the recent fulfillment of the will of God, according to which we are born now to calling and salvation.”
To say this has anything to do with pre-existence is of course unfounded speculation, as it refers to God’s foreknowledge. Romans 4:17 also very good. Jeremiah 1: 5 does not refer to pre-existence, but to God’s foreknowledge. Clement of Alexandria’s comment in “The Instructor 1:7 is likewise concerned with God’s foreknowledge, not with pre-existence.
Clement of Rome (Clememtine Recognitions 1:1 in ANF 8:77): “whether I did not exist before I was born, and whether there shall be no remembrance of this life after death..”
This verse does not even address pre-existence. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the pre-existence of the soul.
Justin Martyr says in Dialogue with Trypho 5 (ANF 1:197) “If the world is begotten, souls also are necessarily begotten; and perhaps at one time they were not in existence, for they were made on account of men and other living creatures, if you will say they have been begotten wholly apart, and not along with their respective bodies.”
This says nothing about when the soul was created, just that it is created apart from the body.
Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus 5-6 (”The Early Christians afte the Death of the Apostles”, by Arnold) “the soul lives in the body, yet does not have its origin in the body”.
This verse, too, is used by despairing Mormons to make the case of pre-existence. Of course, all this verse shows is that the soul is not created in the body. It says nothing about the soul being created before the body, which is what Mormons would like it to say. Too bad for them.
Another tack: making Christ’s pre-existence = the individual soul’s pre-existence:
The 2nd century Clementine Recognitions, allegedly preached “the doctrine of the pre-existence of souls.”
This is nothing more than a footnote to Clementine Recognitions 1:28 in Roberts and Donaldsons The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 8, (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975,) p. 85.
The pre-existence of Christ can of course be accepted. This does not mean the pre-existence of each individual soul, though.
Yet another try: making Christ’s existence from the beginning = the individual soul’s pre-existence:
For example, the second century Pastor of Hermas , Vis. 2:33 “She [the Church] was the first of all creation... and the world was made for her.”
This says merely that the Church existed from the beginning of creation, not that it has existed in pre-existence from all eternity. The Church had a beginning in time, just like all of creation. In using this argument, Mormons confuse the event of creation with pre-exsitence from eternity. Of course the latter is totally without support.
2 Clement, another document from about the middle of the second century, reads (2 Clement 14:2) “Moreover, the books and the apostles declare that the Church belongs not to the present, but existed from the beginning.”
Again, this is an irrelevant quote which says nothing about pre-existence of soul.
It is good to study both sides, from the writings of both sides, then praying to see if your conclusions are correct.
God be with you'll.
Of Course.
Than produce your writings as the article says and how they compare to the ACTUAL writings of the Early Christians of the 1st thru 3rd centuries
“”God be with you'll””
Christ be with you as well ,Dear Friend.
++++++
as the article developers, they will be there, this is only the overview.
I have already seen the development and it is full of twisting the actual writings of the early Christians and glorifying the borrowed works of Plato by Smith to deceive an uneducated group of people of his time
The remainder of this article is historically incorrect and mess of errors
http://www.fairlds.org/Restoring_the_Ancient_Church/chap03.html
That passage doesn't exactly promote POV very well as it is pointing out that the Gospel was being corrupted before the Apostles were gone. After the Apostles were gone, well that is what classical christianity is today, the very false gospel Paul was warning the Galatians about. The same warning is found in other epistles.
Verse 8 also does not promote your POV either.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
If Paul is warning about the preaching of false apostles and angels, that implies the acceptance of divinely appointed apostles and angels preaching the true gospel message.
To the heretic, the truth is heresy. :-)
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