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To: Chaguito

Okay, you’re really trying to get over on this puzzle analogy, and I understand why, but you are literally boxed in logically. You need to accept that.

The purpose of the puzzle analogy was to accomplish one thing and one thing only, that is to refute your statement from post 1812.

“If scripture provides the things that produce completeness in the believer, as the passage clearly says, then it is sufficient, even if the word “sufficient” doesn’t appear.”

The above quote is a non-sequitur. The conclusion does not follow from the premises. The puzzle analogy demonstrates this by showing “that which produces completeness is NOT ‘sufficient’ in and of itself.”

And yes, Paul did say the Scriptures were able to make you wise unto salvation. You go on to extend that by saying the Scriptures are sufficient to salvation when applied, but that’s the hitch. Just because you know it (wise), doesn’t mean you can do it (apply).

That takes grace.

I’m not saying you can’t get the grace you need right where you are. What I’m telling you is that for twenty years I lived in spiritual torture because I didn’t get the grace I needed to realize the promise of freedom from the law of sin and death as Paul explains in Romans 7, but I received that grace through the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of our Lord Jesus in the reception of His Most Holy Eucharist.

Now I can finally say along with our beloved St. Paul “O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord!”


1,892 posted on 05/08/2008 5:26:47 PM PDT by papertyger (That's what the little winky-face was for.)
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To: papertyger; Mad Dawg
Elegantly stated, and I'm beginning to see why we have not been coming to agreement. 1800 posts without agreeing on a definition of "sufficient"

I couldn't agree more that more is needed than holding on to scripture. I couldn't agree more that I cannot (will not) apply it to myself apart from the grace of God. I'm fallen, and holding my Bible to my head all day won't change anything inside of either of them.

I too love the Eucharist (we don't like to use the word, but it's sure biblical), although I don't necessarily attach exactly the same significance to it that you do. I take "the Lord's Supper" every Sunday, or maybe more, and in it I am transported to the foot of the Cross (acc to MadDawg this may be ok doctrine).

But I don't know the significance of Eucharist or baptism or the Cross for that matter apart from Scripture. Someone taught me and I also studied it on my own. My definition of sufficient is that scripture provides sufficient information about, and understanding of, these things without any other intervention. Yes, brothers will differ without a central authority, but my experience is that the differences get blown out of proportion by that form of argumentation that says, "Gotcha."

I understand the torment you experienced -- I did too. All my life being told to do the ordinances of God, like baptism and the Lord's Supper, and then "live a Christian life." Well, what's that supposed to mean!?! Even very young, I could see that there was something wrong with that picture. I couldn't do it. If I tried, I would be poking out eyes and cutting off hands right and left.

I won't make it a boring testimony, but suffice it to say that I discovered that by God's Spirit, Jesus will live his resurrection life out in me. I can't, but he can, because he already did it. "Walk by the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh," replaced "Quit fulfilling the lusts of the flesh, and maybe you'll deserve the Spirit." The hard part, for me, of being a Christian is to believe that he will, and is, doing it in me. To me, that's what faith is.

If I have led you to believe that what I mean by "sufficient" is that scripture has magical saving power, I apologize. That would be idolatry. God has saving power through the Cross of Christ, and offers saving hope through the Resurrection, and life through the Holy Spirit. There is where I take my stand.

But I only know these things through scripture. God's grace is there to accept or reject.

Now I suppose there are about a dozen things you would like to nail me on in what I just said. And I probably still haven't interpreted you accurately. But I've been robbing my employer and my students for a couple of days with all this, so got to go. God bless.

1,893 posted on 05/08/2008 6:23:52 PM PDT by Chaguito
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