Posted on 05/03/2008 4:38:34 PM PDT by NYer
Scripture, our Evangelical friends tell us, is the inerrant Word of God. Quite right, the Catholic replies; but how do you know this to be true?
It's not an easy question for Protestants, because, having jettisoned Tradition and the Church, they have no objective authority for the claims they make for Scripture. There is no list of canonical books anywhere in the Bible, nor does any book (with the exception of St. John's Apocalypse) claim to be inspired. So, how does a "Bible Christian" know the Bible is the Word of God?
If he wants to avoid a train of thought that will lead him into the Catholic Church, he has just one way of responding: With circular arguments pointing to himself (or Luther or the Jimmy Swaggart Ministries or some other party not mentioned in the Bible) as an infallible authority telling him that it is so. Such arguments would have perplexed a first or second century Christian, most of whom never saw a Bible.
Christ founded a teaching Church. So far as we know, he himself never wrote a word (except on sand). Nor did he commission the Apostles to write anything. In due course, some Apostles (and non-Apostles) composed the twenty-seven books which comprise the New Testament. Most of these documents are ad hoc; they are addressed to specific problems that arose in the early Church, and none claim to present the whole of Christian revelation. It's doubtful that St. Paul even suspected that his short letter to Philemon begging pardon for a renegade slave would some day be read as Holy Scripture.
Who, then, decided that it was Scripture? The Catholic Church. And it took several centuries to do so. It was not until the Council of Carthage (397) and a subsequent decree by Pope Innocent I that Christendom had a fixed New Testament canon. Prior to that date, scores of spurious gospels and "apostolic" writings were floating around the Mediterranean basin: the Gospel of Thomas, the "Shepherd" of Hermas, St. Paul's Letter to the Laodiceans, and so forth. Moreover, some texts later judged to be inspired, such as the Letter to the Hebrews, were controverted. It was the Magisterium, guided by the Holy Spirit, which separated the wheat from the chaff.
But, according to Protestants, the Catholic Church was corrupt and idolatrous by the fourth century and so had lost whatever authority it originally had. On what basis, then, do they accept the canon of the New Testament? Luther and Calvin were both fuzzy on the subject. Luther dropped seven books from the Old Testament, the so-called Apocrypha in the Protestant Bible; his pretext for doing so was that orthodox Jews had done it at the synod of Jamnia around 100 A. D.; but that synod was explicitly anti-Christian, and so its decisions about Scripture make an odd benchmark for Christians.
Luther's real motive was to get rid of Second Maccabees, which teaches the doctrine of Purgatory. He also wanted to drop the Letter of James, which he called "an epistle of straw," because it flatly contradicts the idea of salvation by "faith alone" apart from good works. He was restrained by more cautious Reformers. Instead, he mistranslated numerous New Testament passages, most notoriously Romans 3:28, to buttress his polemical position.
The Protestant teaching that the Bible is the sole spiritual authority--sola scriptura --is nowhere to be found in the Bible. St. Paul wrote to Timothy that Scripture is "useful" (which is an understatemtn), but neither he nor anyone else in the early Church taught sola scriptura. And, in fact, nobody believed it until the Reformation. Newman called the idea that God would let fifteen hundred years pass before revealing that the bible was the sole teaching authority for Christians an "intolerable paradox."
Newman also wrote: "It is antecedently unreasonable to Bsuppose that a book so complex, so unsystematic, in parts so obscure, the outcome of so many minds, times, and places, should be given us from above without the safeguard of some authority; as if it could possibly, from the nature of the case, interpret itself...." And, indeed, once they had set aside the teaching authority of the Church, the Reformers began to argue about key Scriptural passages. Luther and Zwingli, for example, disagreed vehemently about what Christ meant by the words, "This is my Body."
St. Augustine, usually Luther's guide and mentor, ought to have the last word about sola scriptura: "But for the authority of the Church, I would not believe the Gospel."
Probably as much as you do if I pull out one of my Greek Lexicons...
But hey, it's already been translated by countless numbers of people...You got a better translation??? Your buddy Jerome even thought the Greek word meant ALL...Here's the DR translation:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned and do need the glory of God.
What, you got a translation that says the word actually means some, or most, or all but Mary???
"obviously, I was referring to the top earthly authority in the early church. It’s so obvious that I have to wonder about your motives for posting. Is there a statute of limitations on pedantry? What’s the oldest post you have felt the need to answer in such a way?"
No, we don't.
I don't know if they are trying to convince us, or each other...
"It is my understanding that "time" does not exist in Heaven. (Or, rather, Heaven does not exist in "time.") If Mary and the other saints are united with God in Heaven, then such questions are not relevent."
***Then why is Jesus NOT the one bathed in light with Mary at his feet pointing UP???***
Because Jesus is on the Altar during Mass or in the Tabernacle in the Blessed Sacrament at other times. He is physically present and we don’t need a statue or picture to remind us that He is there. The Sacred Heart of Jesus statue that you see on the right is there to remind Catholics of His great love for us, not to remind us to think of Him, because we already know that He is there. The statue of Mary reminds Catholics that she prays for us in a special way.
In addition, Mary is in the middle because the church is St. Mary’s, Evansville, Indiana. That means that she is their patron saint, praying for the parishioners in a special way.
For Catholics, the main focus of a Church is Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament, whether at Mass or in the Tabernacle. It’s just a given, and anything else is “icing on the cake” so to speak, although the crucifix reminds us that we are “really there” at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.
Here is the website of the parish: http://www.stmaryevansville.org/
If you go there, you will see that they are a downtown parish, and are committed to preaching the Gospel in Word and deed - feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc. - serving Jesus in others.
Your answer to the question about just what exactly is idolatrous in the church represented here is eagerly awaited. If you know better than I what I know, as you have indicated before, then you know I am stupid and need to have things spelled out. Tell me what's idolatrous about that church, please.
E=mc2
Without mass, time does not exist.
"You don’t seem to have any regard for Exodus 20:16."
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:Exodus 20:4
AMEN!
2 Pet 3:8 gets the ball rolling.
Please describe the error that invalidates the argument you refuse to accept.
Neither.
It's about correcting the record for third parties who might read this.
Perhaps you should read Exodus 25 where God INSTRUCTS Moses how to make the Ark.
Nor did the Jews:
And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel
Exodus 25:20
Nor did God.
Apparently God violated His own commandment when he gave instructions for construction of the Ark of the Covenant.
Or maybe your interpretation of Exodus 20:4 is defective.
Here’s a hint: Exodus 20:2-5 provides the complete context of Exodus 20:4.
Exodus 25-30 tells of God’s commandments regarding the Ark of the Covenant and the Tabernacle and worship regulations. Everything was made of gold and Aaron’s breastplate had twelve precious stones on it, which are also mentioned in Revelation as being the stones that the heavenly Jerusalem is made of. These chapters also give the directions for what kind of incense the Lord wishes to have, the types and kinds of furniture, the colors of the fabrics, and every little detail. The Lord God, who never changes, was concerned about these things then, so there is no reason to think He wouldn’t be concerned about them now. In addition, the Lord God, creator of heaven and earth, deserves the best that we can give Him. These things show our love for Him, just as when you love your spouse or children, you want to give them presents. These things of beauty are our presents to Him, our gift of worship.
Draw your own conclusions, but don't quote me incorrectly. It's against the rules.
As Scripture tells us, there are many antiChrists in the world; those men who exalt themselves to the status of God.
Much like all RC priests who call themselves "another Christ," as the RCC teaches.
Much like labeling Mary as the "co-redeemer," as the RCC teaches.
Much like the false bishop of Rome who tells the world he is the head of Christ's church on earth and that he is "infallible" in matters of faith, as the RCC teaches.
Lies, all of them.
VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ.[13] Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.[14]
**[13] COL 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. EPH 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church. **[14] MAT 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 2TH 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; REV 13:6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
Of the Church
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders.
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