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The Eucharist: The Body of Christ? ("Respectful Dialogue" thread)
Our Sunday Visitor (via Catholic Culture) ^ | 1/2005 | Marcellino D'Ambrosio, Ph.D.

Posted on 04/27/2008 3:36:18 AM PDT by markomalley

The Catholic Church teaches that in the Eucharist, the communion wafer and the altar wine are transformed and really become the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Have you ever met anyone who has found this Catholic doctrine to be a bit hard to take?

If so, you shouldn't be surprised. When Jesus spoke about eating his flesh and drinking his blood in John 6, his words met with less than an enthusiastic reception. "How can this man give us his flesh to eat? (V 52). "This is a hard saying who can listen to it?" (V60). In fact so many of his disciples abandoned him over this that Jesus had to ask the twelve if they also planned to quit. It is interesting that Jesus did not run after his disciples saying, "Don't go — I was just speaking metaphorically!"

How did the early Church interpret these challenging words of Jesus? Interesting fact. One charge the pagan Romans lodged against the Christians was cannibalism. Why? You guessed it. They heard that this sect regularly met to eat human flesh and drink human blood. Did the early Christians say: "wait a minute, it's only a symbol!"? Not at all. When trying to explain the Eucharist to the Roman Emperor around 155AD, St. Justin did not mince his words: "For we do not receive these things as common bread or common drink; but as Jesus Christ our Sav­ior being incarnate by God's word took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also we have been taught that the food consecrated by the word of prayer which comes from him . . . is the flesh and blood of that incarnate Jesus."

Not many Christians questioned the real presence of Christ's body and blood in the Eucharist till the Middle Ages. In trying to explain how bread and wine are changed into the body and blood of Christ, several theologians went astray and needed to be corrected by Church authority. Then St. Thomas Aquinas came along and offered an explanation that became classic. In all change that we observe in this life, he teaches, appearances change, but deep down, the essence of a thing stays the same. Example: if, in a fit of mid-life crisis, I traded my mini-van for a Ferrari, abandoned my wife and 5 kids to be beach bum, got tanned, bleached my hair blonde, spiked it, buffed up at the gym, and took a trip to the plastic surgeon, I'd look a lot different on the surface. But for all my trouble, deep down I'd still substantially be the same ole guy as when I started.

St. Thomas said the Eucharist is the one instance of change we encounter in this world that is exactly the opposite. The appearances of bread and wine stay the same, but the very essence or substance of these realities, which can't be viewed by a microscope, is totally transformed. What was once bread and wine are now Christ's body and blood. A handy word was coined to describe this unique change. Transformation of the "sub-stance", what "stands-under" the surface, came to be called "transubstantiation."

What makes this happen? The power of God's Spirit and Word. After praying for the Spirit to come (epiklesis), the priest, who stands in the place of Christ, repeats the words of the God-man: "This is my Body, This is my Blood." Sounds to me like Genesis 1: the mighty wind (read "Spirit") whips over the surface of the water and God's Word resounds. "Let there be light" and there was light. It is no harder to believe in the Eucharist than to believe in Creation.

But why did Jesus arrange for this transformation of bread and wine? Because he intended another kind of transformation. The bread and wine are transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ which are, in turn, meant to transform us. Ever hear the phrase: "you are what you eat?" The Lord desires us to be transformed from a motley crew of imperfect individuals into the Body of Christ, come to full stature.

Our evangelical brethren speak often of an intimate, personal relationship with Jesus. But I ask you, how much more personal and intimate can you get? We receive the Lord's body into our physical body that we may become Him whom we receive!

Such an awesome gift deserves its own feast. And that's why, back in the days of Thomas Aquinas and St. Francis of Assisi, the Pope decided to institute the Feast of Corpus Christi.


TOPICS: Catholic; Theology
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To: Alamo-Girl

PRAISE GOD FOR SANITY IN READING. THANKS ENORMOUSLY.

I really did search long and hard for a term I could live with but that was accurate and not particularly offensive.

I can’t imagine anyone being at/in St Peter’s as I’ve been . . . and thinking any other word would be MORE fitting.

Now, I suspect some may be TAKING OFFENSE quite eagerly BECAUSE of various uses I’ve made of the term. But that’s a different issue, story. I make creative uses of lots of words. Does that rob them of others’ use? Does that rob them of other, more conventional meanings? What a construction on reality that would be!


61 posted on 04/27/2008 9:07:27 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: hosepipe
For we are talking about Jesus becoming flesh again, to be consumed by the flesh, in a fleshly way, for fleshly means..

Not if you are talking about transubstantiation as taught by the Roman Catholic Church.

62 posted on 04/27/2008 9:08:03 AM PDT by Petronski (When there's no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth, voting for Hillary.)
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To: Petronski

uhhhhh

OK.


63 posted on 04/27/2008 9:08:27 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Alamo-Girl

The disrespect is in the context in which it has been used on this forum.

In this case, context is the key to the persception of disrespect.


64 posted on 04/27/2008 9:09:34 AM PDT by Running On Empty ((The three sorriest words:"It's too late"))
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To: Petronski

I’ve explained that at great length on another thread. I have no interest in explaining it here.

Basically, using the label you’d like to demand of me is extremely offensive and UNBiblical, to me.


65 posted on 04/27/2008 9:10:12 AM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Running On Empty

Precedent is also very informative in this case.


66 posted on 04/27/2008 9:10:20 AM PDT by Petronski (When there's no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth, voting for Hillary.)
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To: Quix

I understand your protests against “Respectful Dialogue.”


67 posted on 04/27/2008 9:11:50 AM PDT by Petronski (When there's no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth, voting for Hillary.)
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To: Alamo-Girl
Thank you oh so very much for your testimony and those Scripture references!

Blessings on you and yours.

Your words and insights are truly anointed !

b'SHEM Yah'shua
68 posted on 04/27/2008 9:13:56 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: Alamo-Girl

69 posted on 04/27/2008 9:17:56 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (you shall know that I, YHvH, your Savior, and your Redeemer, am the Elohim of Ya'aqob. Isaiah 60:16)
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To: Quix

What reason would you have to be unable to post RCC if you already can post RC?


70 posted on 04/27/2008 9:19:08 AM PDT by Petronski (When there's no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth, voting for Hillary.)
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To: markomalley

On transubstantiation, I find that my Catholic (and some transubstantiation-believing Protestant) friends are really not too far away from my Protestant beliefs.

At some point both Catholics and Protestants both procure unleavened wafers and wine from some place. Nobody (I think) would dispute that at this point they are simply bread and wine.

They represent a metaphor or proxy for the blood and body of Christ at this stage as they have been procured for this purpose.

At some point - whether it is at consecration or the actual communion (I think that is what this article said) if you believe in transubstantiation, the change occurs.

The common ground I see is that we all agree (maybe) that at some point we are simply dealing with bread and wine - and the sacramental blessing for the Eucharist converts it - either spiritually, or spiritually & literally - depending on what side of the fence you are on.

The value to the receiver is the same, in my opinion, but if I’m wrong and transubstantiation actually does occur, I’ll be none worse for it!


71 posted on 04/27/2008 9:20:12 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: Petronski; Quix
It is not a matter of difficulty but communications. The term "Roman Catholic Church" does not convey that the poster perceives a "large structure" or "edifice."
72 posted on 04/27/2008 9:20:21 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Petronski; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; Quix
Me- For we are talking about Jesus becoming flesh again, to be consumed by the flesh, in a fleshly way, for fleshly means..

YOU- Not if you are talking about (T)transubstantiation as taught by the Roman Catholic Church.
--------------------------

Are you saying that in transubstantiation Jesus is not come back in the FLESH?.. according to the rite.. Tha Jesus is come back spiritually, instead?.. or that he somes back both fleshly and spiritually.. Penn and Teller Christianity has always crawled my nape(among the reformed also).. Yet I do believe in miracles.. You know , real ones..

73 posted on 04/27/2008 9:20:25 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: hosepipe
Penn and Teller Christianity

This is very disrespectful.

74 posted on 04/27/2008 9:23:40 AM PDT by Petronski (When there's no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth, voting for Hillary.)
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To: markomalley
There are a couple of issues that are wrong with Catholic doctrine on this matter. By "wrong" I mean they are evolved doctrines that stray away from scripture, the revealed word of God.

1. The symbols (and I'll explain later why they're symbols) were only intended to be consumed on one day a year, on the Passover. Passover is one of the Lord's yearly holy days, established by the Lord, the eternal God, for his people:

Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover.

As such, Jesus Christ, God incarnate, observed it:

Luk 2:41 Now his parents went to Jerusalem every year at the feast of the passover.
Luk 2:42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.

Note this:

Luk 22:15 And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer:
Luk 22:16 For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God.
Luk 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
Luk 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.
Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and broke it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.
Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

In the scripture above, Jesus links the symbols of the bread and wine WITH Passover, the Passover that he himself created and which he observed when incarnate.

If I understand Catholic belief properly, that they hinge they're understanding that the bread and wine in use TODAY are (or become) the actual body and blood of Christ. As evidenced in the article, much of this hinges on the interpretation of the verses (and others like it) above. For example:

Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and broke it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

As Catholics correctly point out, the did not say "this is a SYMBOL of my body." However, IF we want to take this argument to literally and to it's logical conclusion, the the ONLY bread that was Christ's body was the bread he was talking about at that time. He said "THIS is my body". He didn't say "This, and future pieces of bread, are my body."

Now Paul taught future Christians in biblical times that the the bread and wine were to be taken on Passover:

1Co 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
1Co 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
1Co 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

The first verse is important. Paul is correcting people in how and when they were taking the Passover.

For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

What did Paul deliver to them that he received from the Lord? That the SAME NIGHT, Passover, which he had been betrayed, he took the bread and wine. Since it was NOT the same bread and wine, Paul understood they were symbols.

75 posted on 04/27/2008 9:26:50 AM PDT by DouglasKC
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To: Running On Empty; Quix; markomalley
The disrespect is in the context in which it has been used on this forum.

Personally, I do not perceive prejudice as respectful - or more importantly, Scriptural.

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: - Luke 6:37

You also said:

In this case, context is the key to the persception of disrespect.

And the context here - without prejudice - was...

We find no conclusive justification for the seemingly arbitrary interpretations the RC edifice makes of a number of Scriptures, including that one.

IMHO, if posters continue to harbor resentments towards one another, then "respectful dialogue" cannot be achieved.


76 posted on 04/27/2008 9:27:40 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: ovrtaxt
I always thought that believers were the Body of Christ, which the bread represents.

Interesting observation...one that I hadn't heard before.

As an aside, do you recall (no peeking now), what three things were contained inside of the tabernacle in the ark of the covenant?

77 posted on 04/27/2008 9:29:01 AM PDT by markomalley (Extra ecclesiam nulla salus)
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To: Quix
The clear claim of Christ in Holy Scripture is that His true body and blood are truly present and distributed to those who eat.

Matt 26:

26While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take and eat; this is my body." 27Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of the[a] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."

Mark 14:22-25; Luke 22:15-20; 1 Cor. 11:23-26 offer more of the same affirmation.

"A Biblical view of the Real Presence rejects two aberrations. On the one hand, it is wrong to reject Christ's clear words simply because our fallen human reason cannot fully understand how it comes to pass. Any effort to make the "This is" something less than a clear word, as Reformed theology does by denying the real presence of the body and blood of Christ on earth, is a departure from Christ's words. On the other hand, it is also fruitless to engage in theories about how the body and blood are present in, with, and under the bread and wine. A dogma such as transubstantiation, as generally taught by Roman Catholicism, is not set forth by Scripture."

Theology and Practice of The LORD'S SUPPER Part I A Report of the Commission on Theology and Church Relations of the Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod May 1983.

http://www.lcms.org/graphics/assets/media/CTCR/Theol_lord_supper1.pdf.

Heb 7:

26Such a high priest meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. 27Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. 28For the law appoints as high priests men who are weak; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever.

The bold is mine. The Lord's Supper is a means of grace accepted through faith by believers. Grace and faith are not reliant upon human effort, as they are gifts from God.

78 posted on 04/27/2008 9:30:06 AM PDT by xone
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To: Petronski; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; Quix
[ Penn and Teller Christianity / This is very disrespectful. [

To whom?.. Its a "if the shoe fits, wear it" statement..
Rather present "your case" for transubstatiation and we'll ralk about it.. respectfully..
If you cannot or will not thats another story..
Its you that seem to be NOT respecting ME,, rather..

79 posted on 04/27/2008 9:31:10 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: DouglasKC
How does 1Cor 11:27 make sense if it is merely symbolic:

Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord.

80 posted on 04/27/2008 9:31:26 AM PDT by Petronski (When there's no more room in hell, the dead will walk the earth, voting for Hillary.)
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