Posted on 04/27/2008 3:36:18 AM PDT by markomalley
Yet, after the Last Supper, the disciples remained a bunch of frightened people who didn’t understand what was going on with the crucifixion. Only after the Holy Spirit came on them at Pentecost were they transformed.
==
INDEED.
IN REMEMBERANCE . . .
hmmmm . . .
NOT
—in incorporation of me
—in transforming ingestion of me
—in integrative infusing of me
—in dynamic holy infection of me into every cell and fiber
—in miraculous transubstantiation of me
—in transforming digestion of me
—in monopolistic, market cornering ritualizing of me
No.
merely . . . IN REMEMBERANCE of me.
Jesus came to give us the truth and set us free from man-made “religious systems.”
= =
Absolute truth there! Preach it Bro.
John 6 was not given at the Last Supper. It is speaking a timeless Spiritual truth. Namely, that we must take Christ in, hunger for the living Word of God and let Him satisfy us, make Him part of ourselves - really, not just symbolically. He is our life and light.
I testify that Jesus Christ IS the Word of God. He lives. His Names are Alpha and Omega and I AM.
I realize that people who observe the Eucharist do not believe it is symbolic. And it is true that God’s presence was in the burning bush, the tabernacles and temple. Man, of course, cannot command God to do anything - but God can do anything He wills.
It would be wrong-headed to presume that God is subservient to man or that He has ipso facto transubstantiated a substance - whether a burning bush or bread and wine - simply because certain words were spoken and certain gestures were made. It is a Spiritual matter, not a physical matter.
Give us this day our daily bread. – Matthew 6:11
In sum, if a Christian misses the Spiritual Truth of John 6 that we are really and truly to hunger for Jesus Christ and be filled of Him – that He is not physical food and drink but Spiritual food and drink – that His words are the filling, that He is speaking of spirit and not flesh - that His words are spirit and life – then he will miss the treasure in John 6, all of his diligence to observe the Eucharist or the Lord’s Supper or Shabbat notwithstanding.
Or to put it another way, if one were to trust the observance - and miss the person and power of Jesus Christ Himself - it would be a great tragedy. We are to take Christ in (absorb Him, make Him part of us) really not just symbolically.
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. – 1 Corinthians 10:1-4
As Christ sustained the Hebrews in their wanderings toward their promised land, He sustains us today in our walk toward our new home in His new heaven and new earth (Revelation.) And the sustenance of eternal life is Spiritual, the words of God, not physical as was the manna (John 6.)
To God be the glory!
= =
INDEED!
No amount of luck will help when the thread is beset by those who think "respectful dialogue" is a 2x4 to the head.
There ya go, Mark.
That’s about as respectful as I can be on that score. Your call. Happy to leave the thread, if you wish.
Mockery is your best effort.
Have fun with this one:
1 Cor 10:15 I speak as to wise men: judge ye yourselves what I say. 16 The chalice of benediction which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? And the bread which we break, is it not the partaking of the body of the Lord?
imho, Salvation issues are not that ambiguous in Scripture.
Well, that certainly explains why there are upwards of 30,000 Protestant denominations.
We find no conclusive justification for the seemingly arbitrary interpretations the RC edifice makes of a number of Scriptures, including that one.
Who's "we"? "We" can't seem to agree enough to maintain the unity Christ desired for us.
You sit in judgement of the Church. This is the same Church which suffered its greatest disagreement with the East over a matter of authority, not liturgy or belief, in the 11th Century. More branches were pruned in the Reformation. Selfishness turned a "defender of the faith" into a demi-pope in England. The Church was blessed to have any number of saints, doctors and theologians along the way to help understand what Christ has built (after all, Christ said it would be Him Who did the building of His Church). And yet Quix knows better than them all? Thank you, but I'll continue my study and appreciation with the likes of Augustine, Aquinas, St Catherine, et al.
There you have it, Mark.
Personal assaultiveness on top of rather pointed thread designation violation.
Underwhelming.
In Passover, the Jews were instructed to remember the Passover at each celebration as active participants experiencing it for themselves. The Passover for the Jews was not some historical event they marked with outdoor barbeques, but a real and current event they celebrated in the present tense.
Understood that way, the way it was understood to Christ and the Apostles, makes the RC view more realistic.
You sit in judgement of the Church.
. . . .
And yet Quix knows better than them all?
= = = =
Hmmmmmm
Perhaps Mark, you need to ammend the thread designation to read:
“Respectful (except of Quix & Dr.E.) Dialogue”
I suspect we could live with it quite handily.
Plausible.
Not convincing.
Seems to me, that considering the doctrine of apostolic succession and the years gone by - that the Roman Catholic Church is both structured and large. Where is the disrespect?
.............. And it is true that God’s presence was in the burning bush, the tabernacles and temple. Man, of course, cannot command God to do anything - but God can do anything He wills.
It would be wrong-headed to presume that God is subservient to man or that He has ipso facto transubstantiated a substance - whether a burning bush or bread and wine - simply because certain words were spoken and certain gestures were made. It is a Spiritual matter, not a physical matter.
Yah'shua is the Holy Word of Elohim as John said. In order to know G-d, we must ingest the Word he has given us for our sustenance. also see: Exodus 15:2; Psalm 18:2; Psalm 27:1; Psalm 62:1; Psalm 62:2; Psalm 62:6;"Jesus" or better yet in His Hebrew Name is: YHvH is my salvation ( Yah'shua ).
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
Psalm 62:7; Psalm 118:14; Psalm 119:174; Isaiah 12:2; Isaiah 46:13;
Isaiah 49:6; Isaiah 51:5; Isaiah 56:1; Isaiah 19:20; Isaiah 43:3;
Isaiah 43:11; Isaiah 45:21; Isaiah 49:26; Isaiah 60:16; Hosea 13:4
But Christ didn’t really even put it that way.
Inferring, imputing, extrapolating . . .
is NOT the SAME thing as THUS SAYS THE LORD.
When we do that with
“upon this rock”
and end up with a very differen inference . . . then there’s all manner of . . . vigorous . . . protest.
Where is the difficulty in simply calling it the Roman Catholic Church or RCC?
In observing transubstatiaion it appears to me that it is a mocking of the Holy Spirit.. For we are talking about Jesus becoming flesh again, to be consumed by the flesh, in a fleshly way, for fleshly means.. Like the Holy Spirit(who supposedly makes this happen) comes running like a force of nature under the control of a hierophant.. Basically an elaborate play with a magical ending..
No disrespect to the RCC/EO because there are a number of rights of passage that the reformed have too that crawls my nape.. I prefer Jesus metaphor in John ch 10 that refers to Sheep Pens to explain all this to me.. There must be Sheep Pens, for the sheep pens are within us.. The "flock" metaphorically in the pasture outside(with the shepherd) the sheep pens is where any wise sheep would be but the sheep pens must have their uses.. ELSE Jesus would have condemned them, He didn't..
Transubstantiation seems to be the hinge that several other rites dangle from too.. like heirophantical control of "the layitity".. and apostle job security.. to name a couple of them..
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