The Eucharist: The Body of Christ? ("Respectful Dialogue" thread)

Our Sunday Visitor (via Catholic Culture) ^ | 1/2005 | Marcellino D'Ambrosio, Ph.D.

[pgyanke]

Please forgive me, I don't have time to engage in debate right now. But I did want to add a comment in response to your assertion.

I always thought that believers were the Body of Christ, which the bread represents.

That's all well and good... but can you show that from the Bible? Where does it say that the "bread" represents the Christian community and not Christ Himself?

There’s no need for me to consume the literal Body of Christ, since I am that already.

You make an assertion here that even St Paul wouldn't dare make (see 1 Cor 12:12-26). The Church is the Bride of Christ (Eph, Rev) and we are members of that Body. Just as we were created from the beginning to be joined in one flesh in matrimony, so have we been joined to Christ in the Wedding Feast of the Lamb which is His Passion.

You can find seven times when Christ told His Disciples "I AM"... the door; the light of the world, et al. You can only find one instance (repeated in the Gospels) when Jesus said something else was Him and that is at the Last Supper with the bread and wine. "This is My Body..."

For the God Who spoke and light was separated from dark and all else was made... why do so many doubt that He can transubstantiate bread and wine into His own Body and Blood?

Here's a question I ask all Protestants on this subject. Did the Apostles eat the Body and Blood of Jesus? Jesus said "This is My Body..."... was it?

[Wonder Warthog]

"Most people can accept it as a metaphore, but it does not look or taste like anything but bread and wine. Modern men and women rely on (scientific) evidence, consciously or unconsciously. Faith is required to accept the Eucharist as real."

One point. The Real Presence is NOT antithetical to science. Quit the contrary--unlike past generations, we know that there is a deeper level of reality than appears on the surface. We know, for example, that bread, blood, and our bodies are comprised of atoms (mostly C, H, O, and N, with a bit of Ca, Mg, and some trace elements). These atoms are linked together in different arrangements to form the different substances. It is certainly possible that the process of transubstantiation results in a change at the deeper (non-chemical) level, with the atoms of the bread and wine being "swapped" for the glorified atoms that comprise the risen body of Christ.

This is not to say that the above "is" what happens in transubstantiation, but simply point out that a Real Presence is NOT wholly impossible of today's knowledge of science.

[Tax-chick]

Very interesting!

[trebb]

For the God Who spoke and light was separated from dark and all else was made... why do so many doubt that He can transubstantiate bread and wine into His own Body and Blood?

Here's a question I ask all Protestants on this subject. Did the Apostles eat the Body and Blood of Jesus? Jesus said "This is My Body..."... was it?

Christ often spoke in metaphors and/or parables and it seems clear he was doing so at the Last Supper. He was telling them of the sacrifice to come as he was the only one who fully knew and understood what was coming and used this as an opportunity to help them see one more bit of his omniscience and Godhood.

Of course He could cause the transubstantiation the bread and wine into His body and blood, but it also seems odd that they would continue to be bread and wine. I also have problems with the thought that, because one becomes a Catholic Priest, one is automatically endowed with the ability to perform (or perhaps facilitate is a better word) miracles that have not been readily accomplished since the apostles were dispatched.

I have trouble understanding why so many of the religions of the world absolutely require to have their priests available to "save" the souls of the congregation, when it clear that the Word of the bible only requires one to believe and ask Christ into his heart. We went from the Old Covenant, which proved that men could not become worthy on their own efforts, and into a New Covenant where it seems that other men (if you call them "priest") can help make you worthy.

I'll trust The Father, Christ and the Holy Spirit to be sufficient in and of themselves and consider the Lord's Supper as a symbol that we understand and appreciate that He was willing to be tortured and killed by sinners that sinners might have an Eternal relationship with Him.

God Bless

[Tax-chick]

the Word of the bible only requires one to believe and ask Christ into his heart.

Could you provide a citation for this, please?

[hellbender]

The bread and wine are transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ which are, in turn, meant to transform us. Ever hear the phrase: "you are what you eat?" The Lord desires us to be transformed from a motley crew of imperfect individuals into the Body of Christ, come to full stature.

Yet, after the Last Supper, the disciples remained a bunch of frightened people who didn't understand what was going on with the crucifixion. Only after the Holy Spirit came on them at Pentecost were they transformed.

[hellbender]

By partaking in Communion, we are to remember the covenant that Christ had made with his followers

Indeed. Jesus said: "Do this in remembrance of me."

[paterfamilias]

Great article, and a good discussion, so far.

[hellbender]

I have trouble understanding why so many of the religions of the world absolutely require to have their priests available

It's because certain people always crave superior status and privileges over others. Basically the same motive liberals and socialists have. Jesus came to give us the truth and set us free from man-made "religious systems."

[Petronski]

I also have problems with the thought that, because one becomes a Catholic Priest, one is automatically endowed with the ability to perform (or perhaps facilitate is a better word) miracles that have not been readily accomplished since the apostles were dispatched.

I do not understand the portion of your statement shown in bold, since the line of Catholic priests have been doing this since the time of the apostles.

[Tax-chick]

since the line of Catholic priests have been doing this since the time of the apostles.

There have also been many miracles worked through non-clergy. Are you suggesting, trebb, that there have been no miraculous works since the time of the Apostles, or have I misunderstood?

[Northern Yankee]

I keep plugging away, and use the writings of Thomas Aquinas and the Catechism.

[Northern Yankee]

Great to hear.

At least they're hearing at from you. It will be great preparation for their first Holy Communion next year.

[Northern Yankee]

I also remind my students that the first act Christ did after the Resurrection was to break bread with his disciples. (The walk to Emmaus...) It was then they recognized him for who he was.

[Tax-chick]

I’ll be an assistant teacher in the 2nd grade next year, so the (ahem) aggressively orthodox position will be firmly presented. The Spanish choir is taking up too much time for me to be a head teacher.

[Nihil Obstat]

the ancient Churches are in agreement.

http://www.copticcentre.com/four.html#Eucharist

[MainFrame65]

==> “The Real Presence is NOT antithetical to science.” <==

In fact, the constituent atoms of the very bread and wine given from the hand of Jesus as sacrament at the Last Supper remain present on the Earth, and a very few are LIKELY to be present in each Communion received today.

Avogadro’s number (6 x 10**23) is very large, and the part of the Earth we occupy is so small that virtually every breath we take might share that bounty.

[Alamo-Girl]

My "two cents"...

John 6 was not given at the Last Supper. It is speaking a timeless Spiritual truth. Namely, that we must take Christ in, hunger for the living Word of God and let Him satisfy us, make Him part of ourselves - really, not just symbolically. He is our life and light.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. - John 1:1-4

When Adam ate of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, he took it into himself. It became part of him. It could not be removed. God warned him in the day he ate of it, he would surely die. In a similar fashion, when we take Christ in, He becomes part of us, and we will surely live.

And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread. But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. – Matthew 4:3-4

From John 6, emphasis mine:

The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life.

Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us [his] flesh to eat?

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.

Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard [this], said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you? [What] and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:41-63

I testify that Jesus Christ IS the Word of God. He lives. His Names are Alpha and Omega and I AM.

I realize that people who observe the Eucharist do not believe it is symbolic. And it is true that God’s presence was in the burning bush, the tabernacles and temple. Man, of course, cannot command God to do anything - but God can do anything He wills.

It would be wrong-headed to presume that God is subservient to man or that He has ipso facto transubstantiated a substance - whether a burning bush or bread and wine - simply because certain words were spoken and certain gestures were made. It is a Spiritual matter, not a physical matter.

Give us this day our daily bread. – Matthew 6:11

In sum, if a Christian misses the Spiritual Truth of John 6 that we are really and truly to hunger for Jesus Christ and be filled of Him – that He is not physical food and drink but Spiritual food and drink – that His words are the filling, that He is speaking of spirit and not flesh - that His words are spirit and life – then he will miss the treasure in John 6, all of his diligence to observe the Eucharist or the Lord's Supper or Shabbat notwithstanding.

Or to put it another way, if one were to trust the observance - and miss the person and power of Jesus Christ Himself - it would be a great tragedy. We are to take Christ in (absorb Him, make Him part of us) really not just symbolically.

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. – 1 Corinthians 10:1-4

As Christ sustained the Hebrews in their wanderings toward their promised land, He sustains us today in our walk toward our new home in His new heaven and new earth (Revelation.) And the sustenance of eternal life is Spiritual, the words of God, not physical as was the manna (John 6.)

To God be the glory!

[Quix]

In what SENSE!?!

Plausible meanings abound in a number of Scriptures.

We find no conclusive justification for the seemingly arbitrary interpretations the RC edifice makes of a number of Scriptures, including that one.

“Upon this pebble/rock,” is another.

Insisting that God meant one of several plausible meanings about which reasonable people can differ—and insisting that such an interpretation is = to Salvation vs damnation

makes God out to be a terrible writer or a terrible editor.

imho, Salvation issues are not that ambiguous in Scripture.

[Petronski]

RC edifice

This is very disrespectful.