Posted on 04/22/2008 6:15:22 AM PDT by xzins
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
I believe prophecy has an impact on Salvation in this regard . . .
Folks who are not taught the fulfilled prophecy aspects of Scripture tend to view Scripture with less respect . . . even to the point of not being saved because they respect Scripture so little.
And, folks who are not anticipating Biblical fulfillments of BIBLICAL prophecy may well be caught with their theological pants off . . . spiritually naked before devastating events . . . lost.
I agree, Q.
Prophetic urgency can lead others to have a heightenend sense of concern.
There are three ways that Protestants interpret the meaning of the thousand year “millennium” (and the interpretation leads to answering when they think the rapture will occur).
(1) Post-millennialism – this view interprets the “thousand years” as a very long time. This view also holds that God’s kingdom is being advanced in the world by His grace and the world will eventually be Christianized. Then Christ will return at the close of this period during a time of righteousness and peace. The problem with this view is that the Scriptures do not teach that the world will be even relatively Christianized before the Second Coming. For example, in Matt. 13:24-30;36-43, Jesus says the wicked and the righteous will co-exist until the end of the world, when they will be judged, and either inherit eternal life, or be thrown into eternal fire.
(2) Pre-millenialism (also called “millenarianism”) – like post-millennialists, this view also interprets the “thousand years” as a golden age on earth when the world will be Christianized. But they believe that this period will occur after Christ’s second coming, during which time Christ will reign physically on earth. They believe the Final Judgment occurs when the millennium is over. But Scripture does not teach that there is a thousand year span between the Second Coming and Final Judgment. Instead, Jesus said that when He comes a second time in glory, He will immediately repay every man for what he has done. Matt. 16:27. When Jesus comes, He will separate the sheep from the goats and render judgment. Matt. 25:31-46. There is nothing about any period of time between His coming and final judgment.
(3) Amillennialism – this view also interprets the “thousand years” symbolically, but, ulike the pre and post views, not as a golden age on earth. This view believes the millennium is the period of Christ’s rule in heaven and on earth through His Church. This is because the saints who reign with Christ and to whom judgment has been committed are said to be on their thrones in heaven. Rev. 20:4; cf. 4:4; 11:16. During this time, satan is bound and cannot hinder the spread of the gospel. Rev. 20:3. This is why, they explain, Jesus teaches the necessity of binding the “strong man” (satan) in order to plunder his house and rescue people from his grip. Matt. 12:29. This is also why, after the disciples preached the gospel and rejoiced that the demons were even subject to them, Jesus declared, “I saw satan fall like lightening from heaven.” Luke 10:18. Nevertheless, during this period, the world will not be entirely Christianized because satan, though bound, is still in some sense able to prowl around and attack souls. cf. 1 Peter 5:8. Of the three, this position is most consistent with Catholic teaching (the pre and post-millennium views have been rejected by the Church).
2 Thess. 2:1-4 – concerning the Second Coming of Christ, Scripture teaches (and most Protestants believe) that Christ’s coming will be preceded by a time of rebellion, lawlessness and persecution. Protestants often refer to this period as the “tribulation” (although the word “tribulation” cannot be found in the Scripture passages Protestants use to support the “rapture”). So the question is, when will the 1 Thess. 4:16-17 “rapture” occur, in light of the tribulation and Christ’s Second Coming? Here are the three theories previously mentioned:
(1) Post-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur right after the tribulation and immediately before the Second Coming of Christ. This view can be consistent with Scripture and Catholic teaching to the extent it holds that the rapture and Christ’s Second Coming occur together, after the tribulation and the Church Militant on earth. See, for example, Matt. 24:29-31; Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thess. 1:1-12.
(2) Pre-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur before the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it requires three comings of Christ – first, when He was born in Bethlehem; second, when He returns for the rapture before the tribulation; third, when He returns at the end of the tribulation and establishes the millennium. Scripture rejects three comings of Christ. In Heb. 9:28, it is clear that Christ will appear a second and final time, when he comes in glory to save us. This view also is inconsistent with Matt. 24:24-31; Mark 13:24-27; and 2 Thess. 2:1-12 where the rapture and the Second Coming occur together.
(3) Mid-tribulational view – this view holds that the rapture will occur during the middle of the tribulation. The problem with this view is that it also requires three comings of Christ – first, when He was born in Bethlehem; second, when He returns for the rapture during the middle of the tribulation; third, when He returns at the end of the tribulation and establishes the millennium. As seen in Heb. 9:28, Scripture rejects three comings of Christ. The view is also inconsistent with Matt. 24:24-31; Mark. 13:24-27; and 2 Thess. 2:1-12.
2 Peter 3:8-15 – instead of worrying about when the rapture will occur, Christians should follow Peter’s instruction to repent of their sins, live lives of holiness and godliness, be zealous and at peace, and wait for the Lord’s coming with forbearance and joy!
No offense but I’m not sure any of these guys got the Trinity exactly right either, so this doesn’t prove much. The beliefs of the Fathers are used to justify the papacy too.
Would you argue that trinitarianism was NOT the position of the early church?
Here’s a link to last night’s C2C guest’s site.
This link lists some videos of interest.
http://www.endtime.com/DocLibrary.aspx
His written docs are frustratingly protected in pdf files and I don’t have a converter.
Have a request into him about posting articles on Fr.
Will see what the reply is.
Blessings,
Amen to that !
Nope!
Just a few writings
Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 13 (A.D. 155).
“[T]he ever-truthful God, hast fore-ordained, hast revealed beforehand to me, and now hast fulfilled. Wherefore also I praise Thee for all things, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, with whom, to Thee, and the Holy Ghost, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen.” Martyrdom of Polycarp 14 (A.D. 157).
“For God did not stand in need of these [beings], in order to the accomplishing of what He had Himself determined with Himself beforehand should be done, as if He did not possess His own hands. For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, ‘Let Us make man after Our image and likeness;’ He taking from Himself the substance of the creatures [formed], and the pattern of things made, and the type of all the adornments in the world.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4,20:1 (A.D. 180).
“And first, they taught us with one consent that God made all things out of nothing; for nothing was coequal with God: but He being His own place, and wanting nothing, and existing before the ages, willed to make man by whom He might be known; for him, therefore, He prepared the world. For he that is created is also needy; but he that is uncreated stands in need of nothing. God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels, begat Him, emitting Him along with His own wisdom before all things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him, and by Him He made all things. He is called governing principle’ (arche), because He rules, and is Lord of all things fashioned by Him. He, then, being Spirit of God, and governing principle, and wisdom, and power of the highest, came down upon the prophets, and through them spoke of the creation of the world and of all other things. For the prophets were not when the world came into existence, but the wisdom of God which was in Him, and His holy Word which was always present with Him. Wherefore He speaks thus by the prophet Solomon: When He prepared the heavens I was there, and when He appointed the foundations of the earth I was by Him as one brought up with Him.’ And Moses, who lived many years before Solomon, or, rather, the Word of God by him as by an instrument, says, In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.’” Theophilus of Antioch, To Autolycus, II:10 (c. A.D. 181).
“In the course of time, then, the Father forsooth was born, and the Father suffered, God Himself, the Lord Almighty, whom in their preaching they declare to be Jesus Christ. We, however, as we indeed always have done and more especially since we have been better instructed by the Paraclete, who leads men indeed into all truth), believe that there is one only God, but under the following dispensation, or oikonomia, as it is called, that this one only God has also a Son, His Word, who proceeded from Himself, by whom all things were made, and without whom nothing was made. Him we believe to have been sent by the Father into the Virgin, and to have been born of her—being both Man and God, the Son of Man and the Son of God, and to have been called by the name of Jesus Christ; we believe Him to have suffered, died, and been buried, according to the Scriptures, and, after He had been raised again by the Father and taken back to heaven, to be sitting at the right hand of the Father, and that He will come to judge the quick and the dead; who sent also from heaven from the Father, according to His own promise, the Holy Ghost, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father, and in the Son, and in the Holy Ghost. That this rule of faith has come down to us from the beginning of the gospel, even before any of the older heretics, much more before Praxeas, a pretender of yesterday, will be apparent both from the lateness of date which marks all heresies, and also from the absolutely novel character of our new-fangled Praxeas.” Tertullian, Against Praxeas, 2 (post A.D. 213).
“[T]he statements made regarding Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are to be understood as transcending all time, all ages, and all eternity. For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds the comprehension not only of temporal but even of eternal intelligence; while other things which are not included in it are to be measured by times and ages.” Origen, First Principles, 4:28 (A.D. 230).
“”Next, I may reasonably turn to those who divide and cut to pieces and destroy that most sacred doctrine of the Church of God, the Divine Monarchy, making it as it were three powers and partitive subsistences and god-heads three. I am told that some among you who are catechists and teachers of the Divine Word, take the lead in this tenet, who are diametrically opposed, so to speak, to Sabellius’s opinions; for he blasphemously says that the Son is the Father, and the Father the Son, but they in some sort preach three Gods, as dividing the sacred Monad into three subsistences foreign to each other and utterly separate. For it must needs be that with the God of the Universe, the Divine Word is united, and the Holy Ghost must repose and habitate in God; thus in one as in a summit, I mean the God of the Universe, must the Divine Triad be gathered up and brought together. For it is the doctrine of the presumptuous Marcion, to sever and divide the Divine Monarchy into three origins,—a devil's teaching, not that of Christ's true disciples and lovers of the Saviour's lessons, For they know well that a Triad is preached by divine Scripture, but that neither Old Testament nor New preaches three Gods.” Pope Dionysius [regn. 260-268], to Dionysius of Alexandria, fragment in Athanasius’ Nicene Definition 26 (A.D. 262).
“Equally must one censure those who hold the: Son to be a work, and consider that the Lord has come into being, as one of things which really came to be; whereas the divine oracles witness to a generation suitable to Him and becoming, but not to any fashioning or making. A blasphemy then is it, not ordinary, but even the highest, to say that the Lord is in any sort a handiwork. For if He came to be Son, once He was not; but He was always, if (that is) He be in the Father, as He says Himself, and if the Christ be Word and Wisdom and Power (which, as ye know, divine Scripture says), and these attributes be powers of God. If then the Son came into being, once these attributes were not; consequently there was a time, when God was without them; which is most absurd…
Neither then may we divide into three Godheads the wonderful and divine Monad; nor disparage with the name of ‘work’ the dignity and exceeding majesty of the Lord; but we must believe in God the Father Almighty, and in Christ Jesus His Son, and in the Holy Ghost, and hold that to the God of the universe the Word is united. For ‘I,’ says He, ‘and the Father are one; ‘and, ‘I in the Father and the Father in Me.’ For thus both the Divine Triad, and the holy preaching of the Monarchy, will be preserved.” Pope Dionysius [regn. 260-268], to Dionysius of Alexandria, fragment in Athanasius’ Nicene Definition 26 (A.D. 262).
MARK OF THE BEAST LINK:
http://www.endtime.com/ProphecyTopic.aspx?id=1
The most dreaded prophecy in scripture is the prophecy concerning 666 - the mark of the beast. Books have been written about it. Movies have been produced about it. It has been called the mark of Cain and the mark of the Devil. Until recently, this dreaded subject has been projected into some far distant future. However, it now appears that the time for the enactment of this prophesied cashless society is upon us.
And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.
Explanation:
Proponents of world government teach that there are three major causes of war on the earth: political conflicts, economic conflicts, and religious conflicts. They contend that, if we had one-world government, a global economy, and one-world religion, the root causes of war would be abolished. With the advent of The European Union, NAFTA, APEC, and GATT it appears that a one-world economy is upon us.
The Bible teaches that the time will come where this one-world economy will be so dominant that no man may buy or sell unless he has received a mark in his right hand or forehead. Our world is rapidly moving toward a cashless society where every economic transaction is done electronically and requires that each individual has a number associated with them (e.g. Social Security number). It has been recommended by some in banking circles that a special invisible number be implanted somewhere on the body. This number would satisfy the needs of the banking community, the manufacturing industry, and the businesses that supply us with goods and services. Emerging technologies such as RFID are enabling such a system.
The desires of the proponents of world government, today’s societal trends, as well as emerging technology are working together to fulfill Biblical prophecy and usher in the Mark of the Beast!
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NEW WORLD GOVERNMENT LINK:
http://www.endtime.com/ProphecyTopic.aspx?id=2
VARIOUS RELATED VIDEO LESSON LINKS:
http://www.endtime.com/Videos2.aspx
NAsbU Exodus 13:16 "So it shall serve as a sign on your handHow do you read :
b'SHEM Yah'shua
and as phylacteries on your forehead,
for with a powerful hand the LORD brought us out of Egypt."
Have often wondered how God was going to mark His own . . . as He says in Scripture He will do.
I still don’t have an emphatic answer on that one. But I have utter confidence that HE WILL.
Some say He already has.
So as not to fly a false flag, I am not a chr*stian (though I used to be). I am a Noachide who regards the idea of a non-literal "spiritual messiah" as one of the most harmful ideas that has ever come into existence.
Nor would I argue that trinitarianism was not a doctrine of the early church. Therefore, it WAS a doctrine of the early church and deserves our deepest attention.
As this article points out, premillennialism also was a doctrine of the early church.
I do now have permission to post things from ENDTIEMS.COM to FR etc.
And, have even figured out how to do it from the pdf files.
But it will be tonight or Thurs before I get to it.
Thanks tons for this thread.
Blessings,
Thanks for the charitable post. Like I said, I tried to give a fair assessment to the Pre-Millenial view, based on what I have been told by those who subscribe to it and based on Catholic speakers who have examined it and given the Catholic response, which I tried to to based on the Official Teaching of the Catholic Church.
Thanks again, God Bless
Well, we have to respectfully disagree on that. An earthly Messiah, ruling over the earth, is essentially what the Jewish-Zealots believed during the time of Christ. Judas, was influenced by this Jewish Group, as opposed to the Pharisees and Saduccees. When Judas realized that Christ was not interested in throwing out the Roman empire and establishing and earthly temporal Kingdom, this started Judas on the way to betrayal of Christ.
Regards
The rejection of the world's fulfillment in a literal messianic kingdom--the reduction to the stark alternatives of a sin-and-misery soaked world and a Heaven of disembodied spirits--has led to the rejection of the latter and the attempted transformation of the former by humanistic schemes (Communism, etc.).
G-d created the world to be fulfilled. Our part is to hasten the kingdom by obeying G-d's commandments. Absent this is only an other-worldly quietism or a militant crusading secularism.
While the Trinity was never explicity stated in the Scripture, although MT 28 clearly implys it, it would be the development of the Doctrine of the Most Holy Trinity in the Church Fathers which was finally explicitly taught at the Council of Nicea and the later Councils (Constantinopile 381 AD, Ephesus 431 AD, and Chalcedon 451 AD) in terms of the relationshop among the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
The pre-millinial view, while taught in various forms by some of the Fathers, was never universally taught. Also, it seems to find very little notice in the Eastern Church Fathers. Remember, there were two Theological Traditions, that complemented each other, the Latin-West and the Greek-East. Both traditions came together at the 4 Councils I cited above, but the issue of pre-millinialism by the time of St. Augustine (360-430 AD) had no support, and even though a few Fathers had a pre-millinial view, the Universal Church never embraced it at the 4 Great Universal Councils.
Regards
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