Aide: Pope Looking for Ecumenical Honesty

ZNA ^ | 4/20/2008

[markomalley]

Aide: Pope Looking for Ecumenical Honesty

Says Benedict XVI Not Satisfied With "Well Wishing"

NEW YORK, APRIL 20, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Benedict XVI is looking for a "commitment of honesty" from Christians engaged in ecumenical dialogue, according to a Vatican aide.

Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi, director of the Vatican press office, said this Saturday in comments to the press on the address the Pope gave to ecumenical leaders Friday evening.

The meeting of over 300 religious leaders involved in ecumenical dialogue gathered at St. Joseph's Parish in Manhattan. According to organizers, some 250 represented various Protestant churches, 50 were Orthodox leaders and 50 were Catholics.

Father Lombardi said the Pope wants "to go to the foundations," "to move all Christians of every community to reflect on the importance of seeking the truth together," without being satisfied with "a certain 'well wishing,' let us say, a certain generic goodwill, but to seek out that which is our duty to revealed truth."

What the Pontiff is promoting, he added, is therefore "a commitment of honesty, of honesty and reflection in which the true Christian faith is brought to light [...] by seeking the essential elements of the profession of faith that Scripture and Tradition uphold and on the basis of which, then, we must come together."

Challenges

In his address, Benedict XVI outlined various challenges facing the globalized community, which he said today is "poised between two poles."

He commented that on one hand "there is a growing sense of interconnectedness and interdependency between peoples even when -- geographically and culturally speaking -- they are far apart," but on the other hand "we cannot deny that the rapid changes occurring in our world also present some disturbing signs of fragmentation and a retreat into individualism."

The Pope added that using new communication technology can often cause greater isolation, and that people are yearning for "more authentic forms of community."

Additionally, the Pontiff highlighted the spread of a secularist ideology that "undermines or even rejects transcendent truth."

"The very possibility of divine revelation, and therefore of Christian faith," he added, "is often placed into question by cultural trends widely present in academia, the mass media and public debate."

"For these reasons," the Holy Father urged, "a faithful witness to the Gospel is as urgent as ever. Christians are challenged to give a clear account of the hope that they hold."

Division

Benedict XVI said the division among Christians causes confusion among non-Christians regarding the authentic message of the Gospel, "just at the time when the world is losing its bearings and needs a persuasive common witness to the saving power of the Gospel."

The Pope recalled the "unwavering conviction of the early Christian community that its unity was both caused by, and is reflective of, the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This, in turn, suggests that the internal cohesion of believers was based on the sound integrity of their doctrinal confession."

"My dear friends," continued the Holy Father, "the power of the kerygma has lost none of its internal dynamism. Yet we must ask ourselves whether its full force has not been attenuated by a relativistic approach to Christian doctrine similar to that found in secular ideologies, which, in alleging that science alone is 'objective,' relegate religion entirely to the subjective sphere of individual feeling.

"Scientific discoveries, and their application through human ingenuity, undoubtedly offer new possibilities for the betterment of humankind. This does not mean, however, that the 'knowable' is limited to the empirically verifiable, nor religion restricted to the shifting realm of 'personal experience.'"

The Pontiff called this line of reasoning "faulty," and that accepting it would lead to more division and a loss of the "importance of doctrinal content for Christian living."

Benedict XVI said that even within the ecumenical movement, some are "reluctant to assert the role of doctrine for fear that it would only exacerbate rather than heal the wounds of division."

"Yet a clear, convincing testimony to the salvation wrought for us in Christ Jesus has to be based upon the notion of normative apostolic teaching," he asserted, "a teaching which indeed underlies the inspired word of God and sustains the sacramental life of Christians today."

"Only by 'holding fast' to sound teaching," added the Pope, "will we be able to respond to the challenges that confront us in an evolving world. Only in this way will we give unambiguous testimony to the truth of the Gospel and its moral teaching."

[PAR35]

I haven’t seen the full list, but you can start with the usual liberal suspects of:

Rev. Dr. Donald McCoid, representing Presiding Bishop Mark Hanson of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America

Bishop Jeremiah J. Park - UMC

Rev. Dr. Wesley Granberg-Michaelson - RCA

Rev. Dr. Clifton Kirkpatrick - PCUSA

Rev. Dr. William J. Shaw - National Baptists Convention

Dr. Leith Anderson - NAE

Bishop James Leggett - International Pentacostal Holiness Church

Bishop David H. Benke - LCMS

The Right Rev. Mark S. Sisk - ECUSA

[CTrent1564]

Fair enough, so next time we meet on the boards I will know you are coming from a Lutheran Tradition, who is personally on good terms, not in 100% agreement obviously, with Rome. Is this accurate?

Regards

[Lauren BaRecall]

For most Protestants, anything to do with Marianism is right out, anathema.

I can understand the Protestant position concerning "sola scriptura," but I don't understand this. Doctrine such as the assumption aside, honoring Mary adores and worships Chist. In His humanity, since her "yes" was the God-planned essential cooperation necessary for the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit upon her in the creation of Christ's humanity. In His Divinity, since Christ was her Creator and Redeemer.

I don't see how Jesus could be pleased by anathema towards honoring His Mother. I don't see how the Holy Spirit could be pleased by the dismissal of the Biblical prophecy that He spoke through the words of Mary when she said, "All generations shall call me blessed."

All worthiness of honor that Mary possesses is derived from Christ by virtue of her being His mother. Without Him, she (like us) would cease to exist. With all due respect, what this issue boils down to is that Protestantism must argue with Christ, Himself, in regards to His Mother, and logically speaking, there's no getting around that fact.

[xzins]

I can only take your words to mean that Jesus did not pray for unity of believers.

[xzins]

Yep, we have had this discussion since Ratzinger’s release of his assessment that we aren’t churches.

For my part I’m willing to accept the RC Church as one of the churches that make up the invisible Church, the Bride of Christ. While I think the RCC has some doctrines that I wouldn’t ever teach, I emphasize first that Jesus called for true unity of true Christians, and that He also directed that those who are not against us are for us.

But, then again, I’m a very strong believer in Christian Unity.

Therefore, I do think that the Christians within the RCC are as Christian anyone else, and that like any other church, they include their fair share of tares.

[bobjam]

That’s very nice language. Every Christian desires unity with other Christians, and few Christians would be prone to say “isn’t it great we get into big arguements over such minutia” or “weren’t those wars and executions we carried out against each other really cool”.

I’m interested in the nuts and bolts. Does unity mean everyone under one great ecclesiastical hierarchy? Does unity mean that Catholics and Anglicans fully accept each other’s orders? Does unity mean Benedict XVI and not Bartholomew II presiding at Patriarchal gatherings?

Or does unity mean the unity that exists among Evangelical Protestants. That unity is one of mind, heart and direction rather than institutional or hierarchical unity (think of the “good fences make good neighbors” philosophy.

[Lauren BaRecall]

I’m interested in the nuts and bolts. Does unity mean everyone under one great ecclesiastical hierarchy? Does unity mean that Catholics and Anglicans fully accept each other’s orders? Does unity mean Benedict XVI and not Bartholomew II presiding at Patriarchal gatherings?

The model already exists. There are many "rites" within the Catholic Church. I suggest you take a look at the structure of unity between the Latin (RCC) and Eastern Rites.

[Campion]

Ratzinger’s release of his assessment that we aren’t churches

That wasn't "his assessment"; he was reiterating standard Catholic terminology. A "church" implies and requires validly ordained bishops in Apostolic succession. The Orthodox have'em; the Protestants don't.*

*There are certain Lutherans and Anglicans who would quibble about that, but not many.

[Lauren BaRecall]

Excellent article covering Anglican/Catholic unity, "Anglican Use," and "Anglican Rite":

http://www.the-tidings.com/2005/1118/anglican.htm

[xzins]

Ratzinger did add his assessment, and it is as I said.

Bishop’s are seen differently by other, but even that doesn’t change that fact that all true believers in Jesus are part of the Church, the invisible Bride of Christ.

I’m more than willing to accept the place in the church of Roman Catholics who are believers in Christ....and Episcopals, Presbyterians, Baptists, Orthodox, etc.

[adiaireton8]

Or does unity mean the unity that exists among Evangelical Protestants. That unity is one of mind, heart and direction rather than institutional or hierarchical unity (think of the “good fences make good neighbors” philosophy.

See here.

-A8

[Boagenes]

I didn't mean "honoring" her - Protestants do (well, most of them anyway, including me), indeed, honor and respect Mary for who she was as the mother of our Lord and what she did. When I say "Marianism is anathema", I mean the practice of praying to Mary as one prays to God (for Protestants, any prayer directed to anyone or anything other than God is idolatry), as if she could actually hear or do anything about anything or anyone here on earth. Also, Protestants find the entire notion incompatible with her status as a limited human consciousness. If Mary could possibly "hear" all the "prayers" directed to her, from potentially billions of people, it would require her to be omnipresent (and there's really no way to argue that she could hear all the prayers of all the people in the world and respond by interceding for all of them, without some kind of implied omnipresence - which would make her having attributes we only apply to God himself). This is what I meant by what Protestants find anathema.

We certainly don't disrespect her, and we love and admire her, even above all others. But the Mary of history that we respect and honor is not the same individual as what we believe to be the Mary that the Catholics have created. Protestants see the Catholic Mary as a construct created by the Church, an idol, who has been elevated to a virtual Fourth Person of the Trinity. I realize Catholics think we're wrong about that, and that they will deny that that is how they view or treat Mary. I'm just telling you that's how Protestants see it and understand it.

[Petronski]

I'm just telling you that's how Protestants see it and understand it.

And in doing so, such Protestants are saying No, Catholic, you do not believe what you say you believe. Quite the opposite! You believe what WE say, and you're quite evil and decidedly naughty for doing so.

THAT is bearing false witness.

[bobjam]

Perfect agreement on every issue, no matter how tiny or mundane, is impossible. We fallible humans have minds of our own. So where draw the line? The Roman Catholic Church has institutional unity, but its members, even among its bishops, hold a variety of views as wide as Evangelicals might.

The path to Christian unity ends with institutional unity. Two religious groups cannot be stitched together from the top down, they must grow together from the bottom up. In that regard, Traditionalist Catholics and Evangelical Protestants have come a long way- particularly in addresses the issues of today.

[adiaireton8]

Perfect agreement on every issue, no matter how tiny or mundane, is impossible.

That is not required for true unity. But, true unity does require agreement on all that the Church teaches and proclaims to be revealed by God.

The Roman Catholic Church has institutional unity, but its members, even among its bishops, hold a variety of views as wide as Evangelicals might.

All Catholics declare that they "believe and profess all that the Holy Catholic Church believes, teaches, and proclaims to be revealed by God". Anyone who refuses to believe and profess all that the Holy Catholic Church believes, teaches, and proclaims to be revealed by God, isn't a Catholic, shouldn't call themselves a Catholic, aand shouldn't be receiving communion.

The path to Christian unity ends with institutional unity. Two religious groups cannot be stitched together from the top down, they must grow together from the bottom up.

Man builds from the bottom up. But God builds from the top down. Christ is the head of the Church, and its members are incorporated into Christ. That is top-down building. Institutional unity cannot come by man starting and building our own institution. It can only come by being incorporated into the institution that Christ Himself founded, the "one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church".

-A8

[Boagenes]

No, Protestants are saying, "we believe" it is wrong and that you are putting yourself in grave spiritual danger by kneeling before any graven image, or directing prayer to anyone other than the Trinity.

This is the great divide. You are telling Protestants they are "naughty" for not accepting the authority of the Church and all its teachings, at the risk of hellfire. And yes, we are saying you are "naughty" for bowing to idols and praying to other than the Trinity.

There's a reason there's this schism. Only one of us is right, since both cannot be right. Either we are right, or Catholics are right. And only the Lord can judge the "naughtiness" of the side that's wrong. I, personally, will not risk the wrath of the Lord (I'm a big enough sinner without adding to it) by kneeling before images of Mary or saints, and directing prayers to them as if they can hear or intercede. I'm sorry, but I am convinced that's idolatry and I won't risk that one.

We live by grace, but as Paul said, does that mean we should sin so that grace may abound? God forbid!

[Petronski]

I am convinced that's idolatry and I won't risk that one.

We can respectfully agree on the subject when you put it that way.

Have a good day.

[HarleyD]

There is no "stacking the deck" in acknowledging that sola scriptura is--ironically--non-scriptural.

Well, that's not very ecumenical now is it? You heard the Pope so straighten up.

[Petronski]

Do you think ecumenism means adding to Scripture?

[HarleyD]

Do you think ecumenism means adding to Scripture?

Isn't that quite a statement coming from someone who quotes the Church fathers as readily, if not more so, than scripture? Protestants use ONLY the scriptures. In fact, if anything, you could possibly accuse us of not using ENOUGH of the scriptures since we don't include the Apocrypha.