Posted on 04/11/2008 8:33:54 PM PDT by markomalley
Boy, is that an understatement.
I think they would agree with the statement too. I know they would. The thing is, when they were wrong it was due to their walking away from Sola Scriptura. They had the remnants of what they had come through upon them. Unfortunately, they didn’t get it all right - just the essential stuff.
You wrote:
“The thing is, when they were wrong it was due to their walking away from Sola Scriptura.”
But sola scriptura isn’t scriptural. There’s not a single verse that says Bible alone or even infers Bible alone.
“They had the remnants of what they had come through upon them. Unfortunately, they didn’t get it all right - just the essential stuff.”
There’s no logical reason to think they got even the essential “stuff” right since they were clearly inventing a new gospel previously unknown.
Completely and wholly disagree. 2 Timothy 3:16 John 5:39 Acts 17:11 all tell us where to go for our answers. During the time of the apostles, some Scripture was still in formation so of course, some of what they would learn would be by word of mouth. However, when John finished Revelation, God’s revelation was complete and no verse in Scripture tells us to go to the councils or opinions of men when they are contrary to Scripture to solve disputes. i.e., tradition is only valid when it conforms to Scripture which is what Sola Scriptura is all about - not Scripture alone exclusive of all else - but Scripture alone as the sole determiner of what is true.
As far as precedent goes, that’s where the Lord’s life & Words themselves also shine forth that the Scripture is the place we should be going...
Matthew 21:42
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, ...
Matthew 22:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God...
Matthew 26:56
But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled....
Mark 14:49
I was daily with you in the temple teaching, and ye took me not: but the scriptures must be fulfilled...
Luke 24:27
And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself....
Luke 24:45
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures...
John 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me....
Further, the lives of the apostles show that where truth lies is within the scripture. Where other instruction was given, it was never in contradiction to Scripture as much of the tradition of man has been...
Acts 17:2
And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
Acts 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily,
Acts 18:24
And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures...
Acts 18:28
For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publicly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ....
Romans 1:2
(Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)...
Romans 15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
1 Corinthians 15:3
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures...
1 Corinthians 15:4
And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures...
Whole Chapter)
2 Timothy 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus...
2 Timothy 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Revelation 22:18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book...
You wrote:
“Completely and wholly disagree.”
Doesn’t matter that you do or don’t since the problem is the same in any case.
“2 Timothy 3:16 John 5:39 Acts 17:11 all tell us where to go for our answers.”
Neither one of them touts scripture alone. Neither one of them:
2 Timothy 3:16, for instance: http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/2tim316.html
“During the time of the apostles, some Scripture was still in formation so of course, some of what they would learn would be by word of mouth. However, when John finished Revelation, God’s revelation was complete and no verse in Scripture tells us to go to the councils or opinions of men when they are contrary to Scripture to solve disputes.”
Your mistakes and straw men:
1) You assume councils are contrary to scripture.
2) Tradition was taught by St. Paul as he makes clear.
3) The Church taught authoritatively: http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/authority.html
“i.e., tradition is only valid when it conforms to Scripture which is what Sola Scriptura is all about - not Scripture alone exclusive of all else - but Scripture alone as the sole determiner of what is true.”
Sola scriptura is still only a 16th century doctrine of men and no verse in the Bible supports it - including all those verses you listed.
Do not ascribe my assumptions. Nobody said that councils are contrary to Scripture. The council of Jerusalem, for example, is found within Scripture. It consisted of the apostles, the elders, and THE WHOLE CHURCH making decisions about sending out missionaries. I know what Scripture teaches. NOTHING in Scripture backs up the idea of a leader aside from Christ being a Vicar over His church. NOTHING in Scripture teaches us to venerate Mary. As a matter of fact, many of the traditions of the Catholic church are in stark contrast and contradiction to Scripture. Again, I say it is not Scripture alone with no tradition. Rather, it is Scripture alone as the judge and jury over all traditions. With that as the perspective the Catholic faith fails miserably.
You wrote:
“Do not ascribe my assumptions. Nobody said that councils are contrary to Scripture.”
You implied they could be.
“The council of Jerusalem, for example, is found within Scripture.”
Are those not in scripture less real?
“It consisted of the apostles, the elders, and THE WHOLE CHURCH making decisions about sending out missionaries. I know what Scripture teaches.”
The whole church OF JERUSALEM. Obviously it was not the whole world wide Church. No such meeting was possible.
“NOTHING in Scripture backs up the idea of a leader aside from Christ being a Vicar over His church.”
Actually there is plenty in scripture that shows Peter was the vicar: http://cfpeople.org/Apologetics/page51a066.html
“NOTHING in Scripture teaches us to venerate Mary.”
Nothing in scripture teaches us not to venerate her.
“As a matter of fact, many of the traditions of the Catholic church are in stark contrast and contradiction to Scripture.”
Actually, none of them are.
“Again, I say it is not Scripture alone with no tradition.”
Then you can’t even make up your mind.
“Rather, it is Scripture alone as the judge and jury over all traditions.”
If there are traditions then there isn’t scripture alone. THINK. TRY.
“With that as the perspective the Catholic faith fails miserably.”
No, what fails are your poor attempts to put yourself above the Church (not to mention scripture and tradition) when you can’t even get basic concepts right.
Yeah, that’s worth a bookmark.
John 5: 23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
1 John 2:23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
rev 22: 18 For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
The RCC is guilty of adding scripture!!! If God wanted to hold people accountable to knowing Mary it would be there a we see the relationship between knowing the Son and the Father is there. But the Bible always falls short of proving RCC doctrine doesn't it.
Jesus is no longer a child.
It is not common practice (or biblically encouraged practice) to relate to any mature adult ... through his/her mother.
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