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1 posted on 04/09/2008 6:24:38 AM PDT by NYer
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To: Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; nickcarraway; Romulus; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 04/09/2008 6:25:16 AM PDT by NYer ("Where the bishop is present, there is the Catholic Church" - Ignatius of Antioch)
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To: NYer

Coming to finer torrent sites near you soon.


3 posted on 04/09/2008 6:25:52 AM PDT by jdm
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To: NYer

bump for later


4 posted on 04/09/2008 6:28:42 AM PDT by mnehring
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To: NYer
This is an endless argument. It all boils down to faith. Just as the Protestants cannot be persuaded by arguments to return to the Church, so can no one come to believe because Mark Shea says the Gospel of John is really the Gospel of John.

These are futile arguments that give academicians something to publish without really saying anything new. This is no different than overpaid astronomers who get to play with multimillion dollar telescopes and postulate time-space warps.

None of this really does anything for the world. It doesn't cure hunger; it doesn't bring peace; it doesn't give mercy and compassion; it doesn't justify; it doesn't cure...In other words, its not God's work, it's not using our talents for the betterment of life.

The oldest fragment copy of a copy of a copy of the Gospels happen to be a few pages of John 1, from about 105 AD. It is unsigned. The caption Κατα Ιωαννην (According to John) was added in copies found in the latter half of the second century.

The Gospel of John also differs radically from the Synoptic Gospels, reflecting the belief of Christianity at the end of the first century, emphasizing Christ's divinity as opposed to His humanity of the earlier three Gospels.

His account of the timing of Christ's death and resurrection, as well as his theology, reflects a different era and a clear post-Jamnia state of Christianity as a separate religion. None of this could have been a historical account of early Christianity.

But, in the final analysis, it really makes no difference if any of the books of the Bible were really written by the people we believe they were written by. Isaiah, for instance, reflects three different authors and three different eras, making it impossible to be the the product of one single author.

The Church has consistently and from as early as we can tell followed the writings we now attribute to the New Testament. Of the four Gospels only two were written by alleged Apostolic eyewitnesses, Matthew and John. Mark, whose work is heavily copied by both Matthew and Luke, was not an eyewitness (and neither was Luke). And the Gospels of Matthew and John are like night and day.

But the Church found these to be inspired and reflecting the faith Christ delivered to his followers. It is the message of the Gospels that serves as the foundation of the Church and not the authors' names.

Early Church fathers never gave any account of authorship. The earliest Church (in the East) even tried to used an alamgamted Gospel, a conflation of all four into one. Some, such as St. Justin Martyr, speak only of "apostolic memoirs." (c 150 AD). It is not until Irenaeus at the vend of the 2nd centiry that we begin to see references made to Apostolic authorship.

Mark Shea's appeal to Saints Polycarp and Ignatius is also not a bulletproof "proof." We really don't know much about Polycarp and under which John was he instructed. Many of Ignatius' writings later on turned out to be latter-day forgeries.

The fact is that there is no solid proof that anything in the bible is true, or that the authors are those we believe they are. The Bible is a book that requires pre-existant faith in order to be profitable. No different than any other worldly writing considered sacred.

Let us not forget that even the heretics use the Bible to "prove" their heresies!

5 posted on 04/09/2008 7:59:00 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodox is pure Christianity)
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To: NYer
The best argument that I have seen that it might not be John posits Lazarus as the writer of that Gospel. Lazarus is the one who is named as one whom Jesus loved and was surely a disciple. Remember, there were more than 12 disciples. The 12 were Apostles, not the same thing.Of the other three Gospels, only Matthew was written by an Apostle.
6 posted on 04/09/2008 8:34:12 AM PDT by arthurus
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To: NYer
Hyam Maccoby, Revolution In Judaea: Jesus and the Jewish Resistance
7 posted on 04/09/2008 9:24:49 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: NYer

It is quite possible, even likely that folks who dealt wih other people outside of their own villages could get along in several languages in that time and place.Aramaic and Koine were in common use in the area and they would have been exposed to Latin and probably Hebrew as well. Which additional language(s) they became proficient in would depend on who they dealt with long term. The Chinese population in Sai Gon in 1968 mostly grew up polyglot. A Chinese child there would have two or three Chinese languages, English, and Vietnamese plus maybe a couple of others by the time he was twenty years old.


11 posted on 04/09/2008 11:17:09 AM PDT by ThanhPhero (di hanh huong den La Vang)
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To: NYer

Yes.


12 posted on 04/09/2008 12:51:01 PM PDT by sandhills
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