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A Mormon Mason: New grand master is the first in a century who is LDS
Deseret Morning News ^ | March 29, 2008 | Carrie A. Moore

Posted on 04/03/2008 8:28:09 PM PDT by Alex Murphy

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To: DieHard the Hunter
> Swearing the oath was anti-Christian. It probably didn’t occur to you, but it was.

And so every President of the United States, every Immigrant to the United States, and every Boy Scout — or indeed anybody who has ever sworn an Oath of Allegiance is also Anti-Christian? And everybody who has ever been required to testify in a Court of Law, too? And everybody who has ever taken a Statutory Declaration or needed the services of a Notary, them too? What Bollix you write! You can’t be serious!


Being forced to swear a vow of silence to an organization before you even know what that organization teaches is anti-Christian. As to the others, the acts themselves are indeed against Scripture. Jesus said let your yes be yes and your no be no and swear by nothing. I didn't write the book.
101 posted on 04/06/2008 9:47:48 AM PDT by Blogger (His love, not mine, the resting place, His truth, not mine, the tie.)
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To: DieHard the Hunter
thanks for your reply.

If that is so, then it is a rule that is not taken too seriously by our Catholic brethren: there are many Catholic Freemasons

They know better. Some Catholics don't take the Church seriously on other matters either, that doesn't make them right or good Catholics.

Freemasonry’s membership has included Catholic clergymen: certainly many priests, certainly some cardinals..

I'm not sure how you would know. They couldn't do so publicly. Do you know of any personally, by name?

102 posted on 04/06/2008 10:16:16 AM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: PJ-Comix
As we gathered in Cult like secrecy to plot the United States and give the people a Republican Government.... You should revive PJ Comix and put an apron on the Beaver, BJ was a failed De Molay. /s
103 posted on 04/06/2008 10:22:47 AM PDT by Little Bill (Welcome to the Newly Socialist State of New Hampshire)
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To: PJ-Comix
thanks for your reply, PJ.

I don't think the prohibition is strictly enforced.

It is certainly clearly stated and in my experience strictly enforced.

This is from then Cardinal Ratzinger speaking officially for the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith:

..Therefore, the Church's negative judgment in regard to Masonic associations remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and, therefore, membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful, who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.

It is not within the competence of local ecclesiastical authorities to give a judgment on the nature of Masonic associations which would imply a derogation from what has been decided above, and this in line with the declaration of this sacred congregation issued Feb. 17,1981.

In an audience granted to the undersigned cardinal prefect, the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II approved and ordered the publication of this declaration which had been decided in an ordinary meeting of this sacred congregation.

Rome, from the Office of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Nov. 26, 1983

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger Prefect

I'm sure there are those who do not take the Church seriously here, but it is clear that the Church has been and continues to be serious about the issue.

104 posted on 04/06/2008 10:29:47 AM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: DieHard the Hunter
Tosh. One of my brethren is an Anglican bell-ringer..

As you likely know, Anglican's are quite loose on theology and doctrinal requirements among their member churches, which is causing them quite a bit of controversy of late.

However, in 1987 The Church of England published "Freemasonry and Christianity: Are They Compatible?" The General Synod, who determines policy for Anglicans, approved the report from the working group which included mason and non-mason Anglicans.

Below is an excerpt of a news article about this study. Some will appreciate how typically Anglican the study's findings are.

The 56-page report, “Freemasonry and Christianity: Are They Compatible?” was issued in June of 1987 by a seven member church committee — includ ing two Masons — after a 16-month inquiry. The synod revealed that its five non-Mason committee members found a “number of very fundamental reasons to question the compatibility of Freemasons with Christianity.” The report stated, “From the evidence we have received, it is clear that some Christians have found the impact of Masonic rituals disturbing and a few perceive them as positively evil.” The chairman of the committee, sociologist Margaret Hewitt, said that Freemasonry has been a matter of concern to Christians both in this country and elsewhere for many years.”

The religious aspects of Freemasonry, such as the use of ritual prayers, chaplains, and an unorthodox doctrine of works righteousness apart from God’s grace, were cited by the Anglican Synod as matters of concern. The Synod’s primary theological objection centered upon Masonry’s use of the word “Jahbulon,” which is the name used for deity in Masonic rituals, and is an amalgamation of Semitic, Hebrew, and Egyptian titles for God. The committee’s report concluded that the Masonic rituals were “blasphemous” because God’s name “must not be taken in vain, nor can it be replaced by an amalgam of the names of pagan deities.”

The report went on to say that many Christians have withdrawn from Masonic lodges “precisely because they perceive their membership of it as being in conflict with their Christian witness and belief.”

Though the report accused Freemasonry of being blasphemous and heretical, it did not recommend that the church require members to jettison their association with Masonic lodges, but rather reiterated the fact that Christians who remain involved in Masonry face “clear difficulties.” Several speakers were quick to point out that Masons should not be objects of persecution. Bishop Stanley Booth-Clibborn explained, “The important point ought to be that there should be no undue pressure on Christians who are Freemasons, and no witch hunt.” Archbishop of York John Habgood, the second highest Anglican official, described Freemasonry as being a “fairly harmless eccentricity.” Thus the Anglican position against Freemasonry was not as strong as that recently taken by the Methodist Church in England, which recommended that their members avoid Masonic lodges.

It is uncertain as to what effect this church decision will have on Freemasonry, but Michael Higham, the grand secretary of the United Grand Lodge of England, stated that they do plan further discussions with the church. But if changes in Masonic rituals are made, Higham said “we will do it at our own pace.”


105 posted on 04/06/2008 10:54:55 AM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Terriergal; B.Bolt

All my male ancestors prior to around 1925 were Masons. Some of them Cherokee Indians (Tahlequah, the capital of Indian Territory, Free Mason Cherokee Lodge Number Twenty-one circa 1860) The ones that fought for the south were Masons and so were the ones that fought for the north in the Civil War. Also there were all black Mason lodges in that area of the South. They were from all sorts of religions, and NONE of them would have given up their church to be a mason and they would have ALL disagreed that freemasonry is a ‘religious organization’. In truth it was probably as varied as the republican party is today.


106 posted on 04/06/2008 11:11:25 AM PDT by AuntB ('If there must be trouble let it be in my day, that my child may have peace." T. Paine)
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To: blackie

Exactly. See post # 106. I don’t get it. The republicans and democrats are both doing their bestt to destroy us and some people can only worry about the Masons and Mormons???


107 posted on 04/06/2008 11:15:24 AM PDT by AuntB ('If there must be trouble let it be in my day, that my child may have peace." T. Paine)
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To: AuntB

I’ll be dog gone .. What a fascinating family history you have . So being a Mason is an addition to one’s religion , if I’m processing things accurately .

So other than the uninformed opinions it’s actually a group of like minded people who are grounded and centered in there life sharing a common bond and interest .

For years I’ve read these threads and I still dont get the bitterness but thank you for sharing your family history !


108 posted on 04/06/2008 1:13:32 PM PDT by B.Bolt
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To: Alex Murphy

Now if he became a Scientologist, he’d hit the Trifecta.


109 posted on 04/06/2008 1:15:00 PM PDT by dfwgator (11+7+15=3 Heismans)
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To: AuntB

“B” some folks don’t have anything better to do than attack something they know nothing about.

Masonry is no more a religion than The Declaration Of Independence is a religious document.


110 posted on 04/06/2008 2:37:48 PM PDT by blackie (Be Well~Be Armed~Be Safe~Molon Labe!)
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To: blackie

Who or what is Jahbulon?


111 posted on 04/06/2008 5:34:13 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

> I’m not sure how you would know.

For some of them it is a matter of historical record. For this, I suggest Google is your friend.

And interestingly, some of the more senior Catholics (eg Cardinals) chose to join “Irregular Freemasonry”, which does tend to have some, well, bizarre ideas. Of these, some were members of the infamous “P2” Lodge, which thoroughly corrupted Italy and much of South America during the 1960s and 1970’s.

That said, there are many, many Catholics who belong to Regular Freemasonry as well.

Irregular Freemasonry is not “in amity” with Regular Freemasonry — that is to say, we do not recognize each other.

Much of the steam and fulmination that Catholics and other Christians generate over Freemasonry is in reaction to Irregular Freemasonry.

Regular Freemasonry is what I belong to, and what most if not all of the FReepers who are Freemasons belong to.

> They couldn’t do so publicly. Do you know of any personally, by name?

Yes.


112 posted on 04/06/2008 6:38:57 PM PDT by DieHard the Hunter (Is mise an ceann-cinnidh. Cha ghéill mi do dhuine. Fàg am bealach.)
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To: DieHard the Hunter

What is the name of the freemason priest you refer to?


113 posted on 04/06/2008 9:46:10 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Blogger

> As to the others, the acts themselves are indeed against Scripture.

And so Ruth, who was Jesus’ great-great-great... grandmother was acting against scripture (see Ruth 1: 17)?

And King Solomon? (see 1 Kings 2:17)?

And David? (see 1 Samuel 25:22)?

> I didn’t write the book.

Perhaps you have not read and understood the book thoroughly enough.

As with many Christians you have chosen to latch tight to one verse without taking into account overall context.

> Being forced to swear a vow of silence to an organization before you even know what that organization teaches is anti-Christian.

Don’t be silly! Nobody holds a gun to anybody’s head to swear to keep the organization’s secrets — everyone is perfectly entitled to say “no, I won’t promise to keep your secrets” and then leave without joining — nobody will mind.

We would be perfectly stupid to reveal our Secrets on any other basis than you must promise not to reveal them, before we will even tell them to you.

Ever signed a Confidentiality Agreement or a Nondisclosure Agreement? If you have ever been employed in a position of trust, you will have. They are there so that you do not reveal secrets. And none of those secrets are revealed until your name is there in ink on paper.

It is no different with Freemasonry.


114 posted on 04/06/2008 10:14:56 PM PDT by DieHard the Hunter (Is mise an ceann-cinnidh. Cha ghéill mi do dhuine. Fàg am bealach.)
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To: D-fendr

> What is the name of the freemason priest you refer to?

There are several whose membership is a matter of record. Here’s one for you to chase: Fr. Francisco Calvo was a Jesuit Catholic priest who started Freemasonry in Costa Rica.

How about a Cardinal? Cardinal Jean-Marie Villot was a Freemason. He served as Vatican Secretary of State from 1969 to 1979, and as Chamberlain of the Roman church from 1970 thru 1979. I guess that would make him #2 to the Pope.

There are plenty of others: as I say, Google is your friend.


115 posted on 04/06/2008 10:24:38 PM PDT by DieHard the Hunter (Is mise an ceann-cinnidh. Cha ghéill mi do dhuine. Fàg am bealach.)
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To: Ransomed

> So what was the Mason’s beef with Mormons? I guess I don’t get it.

To the best I can tell, outside of Utah we have never had a beef with the LDS. I don’t understand the historical beef there either. As each State in the US has its own Freemasonic constitution I guess they were free to come up with their own rules, and I couldn’t possibly comment on their rationale for banning LDS way back then.


116 posted on 04/06/2008 10:55:14 PM PDT by DieHard the Hunter (Is mise an ceann-cinnidh. Cha ghéill mi do dhuine. Fàg am bealach.)
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To: Blogger; Terriergal; Mrs. Don-o

> Pike was not just a Freemason. He was the Sovereign Grand Commander of the Scottish Rite for 32 years.

Which means not a darn thing. There are only three degrees in Freemasonry: Entered Apprentice, Fellow Craft, and Master Mason. That is as high as it gets — no higher.

You are obviously confused by the “32-Degree” thing — well, if you were a Freemason you would understand. But you aren’t, so you are confused. From there, your confusion has compounded with your ignorance to create insolence and rude behavior. Understandable but hardly excusable.

> You will not accept the word of a non-Freemason and now you will not accept the word of a Freemason of the highest order.

As I have written before, Alfred Pike was just another Freemason who had an opinion (which he is entitled to) and published it. He could not boss around other Freemasons like me, nor was his writings anything more significant than “interesting to some”.

They are of no interest to me, and do not reflect my views. Or the views of Freemasonry in general. They were — and I say it again — just his own opinion.

That said, were he alive I would definitely accept his word over yours, however: he was a Freemason, and you are merely a member of the profane. And an insolent one at that.

> Me thinks you wish to believe what you wish to believe in spite of any facts to the contrary. Dangerous practice, sir.

Methinks you continue to speak in ignorance of things you are ill-positioned to learn anything about, despite efforts to redirect your ignorance elsewhere. If you want to expound on Freemasonry then for pete’s sake join. If you do not wish to join, then for pete’s sake quit sermonizing to and about those of us who are quite happy with our membership. Obnoxious practise, sir.

Why is it that there is a certain brand of Christian — like yourself — that insists on sermonizing and talking down to others: be they Catholics or Latter Day Saints or Freemasons? What is the deal with people like you? Do you believe that Jesus gives you points in heaven for every time you insult people by accusing them of “cult” membership? Do you get bonus points for making fun of Holy Mary? Do you really think that you will convert people over to your narrow-minded ill-informed cult by insulting them?

I don’t think you will. Instead you will earn the contempt and opprobrium that obnoxious behavior richly earns and richly deserves. You may choose to view that as persecution, but it really isn’t: it is contempt.

Why don’t you work out your own Salvation with trembling and fear, and leave the rest of us to do the same?

Crikey, and I thought the Jehovah Witnesses could get on my nerves — but even they are polite enough to leave off the name-calling.

‘Strewth!


117 posted on 04/06/2008 11:11:04 PM PDT by DieHard the Hunter (Is mise an ceann-cinnidh. Cha ghéill mi do dhuine. Fàg am bealach.)
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To: DieHard the Hunter

I had asked for priests you knew personally. I’ll ask again, do you?

Google lists all sorts of things, I don’t believe you believe that because Google finds it, it is true. For example:

Jean-Marie Villot was not a freemason. I wouldn’t give credence to such:
“Malachi Martin’s book Vatican: a novel, other writers and followers of Veronica Lueken maintain that Cardinal Villot was heavily involved in the alleged assassination of Pope John Paul I, if not the Pope’s actual killer.’

I find no credible source for this claim.

Likewise Google returns hundreds of hits from freemason sites claiming Father Francisco Calvo as a famous freemason in 1865. I went though a few hundred and found no other sources.

There have been scandals, in Italy for example, involving freemasonry and clerics, but this does not prove your point, but the contrary. There have been attempts to change the Church’s view, but again this only emphasises that the Church has a very definite view.

Canon Law and Cardinal Ratzinger’s confirmation and emphasis, approved by Pope Paull II in 1983, makes it clear how the Church views it:

“Therefore, the Church’s negative judgment in regard to Masonic associations remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and, therefore, membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful, who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.”

Membership remains forbidden, those who do are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.

It can’t be any clearer than this.

thanks for your reply.


118 posted on 04/06/2008 11:43:10 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: DieHard the Hunter

The reasons for the Church’s view that Freemasonry is incompatible with the Catholic Faith begin with indifferentism and continues on extensively. For your and other’s benefit if you wish to learn more, here’s a link where further down you can read Cardinal Bernard Law’s letter to US Bishops dated April 19,1996.

The preface reads, in part:

“The enclosed report shows that the principles of Masonry are incompatible with Christian faith and practice whether or not a specific Masonic organization happens to be engaging in activity against the church. For this purpose, we include three studies that explain the issue of incompatibility— the study of Masonic principles and rituals done by the West German Conference of Bishops in 1980, a study of American Masonry by Professor William Whalen of Purdue University written for the committee, and a recent article that appeared in the March 11, 1985, L’Osservatore Romano, “Irreconcilability Between Catholic Faith and Freemasonry.””

It goes into great detail and includes history as well as recent controversy, Masonic Stands, Ritual and Principles. Their conclusions are also at the link, here:

http://showcase.netins.net/web/clearlight/mason.html#004


119 posted on 04/06/2008 11:54:59 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: D-fendr

> I had asked for priests you knew personally. I’ll ask again, do you?

Yes, I do. And no, I am not going to name them because, like all people, they are entitled to their privacy. If they wanted to make their Freemasonry public, they would.

> Jean-Marie Villot was not a freemason.

Says you. He became a Freemason in Switzerland in 1966.

> Membership remains forbidden, those who do are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.

Yet they do.


120 posted on 04/07/2008 12:48:14 AM PDT by DieHard the Hunter (Is mise an ceann-cinnidh. Cha ghéill mi do dhuine. Fàg am bealach.)
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