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To: fortheDeclaration; hosepipe
Those of us who have brains and use them (Am I getting the protestant snarky thing down correctly?) note that there is a difference between "equal" and "same".

Further, we look at quotes in context and when we read Scripture we think not only about the one line but about the situation in which it is given.

So in the case of the woman who calls out "Blessed the womb that bore you and the breasts that have you suck," (from memory), I don't know what YOU see, But I see someone who is implicitly distancing herself from the love and holiness (and blessedness -- a word the pronunciation of which some Protestants seem unwilling to reveal) which Jesus offers to all of us in Him.

But, despite the tendentious leaning on the word usually translated as "rather" I do not think this text itself will unequivocally support the notion that all of us are currently equally OR identically blessed. What it will support is that we are all offered blessedness in Christ AND all challenged to avoid distancing ourselves from that call by adopting a kind of "poor little old me attitude, I'd be so much better off if only I were blood kin to Jesus" attitude.

One of the things I LIKE about hosepipe's disparaging of "denominations", though I think his contention is wrong in the final analysis, is that I think a temptation common to all Xtians is to keep putting something between us and an encounter with Christ, so that a Catholic might be distressed to learn that there was no Mass in heaven (since it is ALL Mass all the time) or Protestant might be upset to find no Bible (since the Word Himself constantly and intimately gives himself to all the blessed).

The woman calls out her cry, and Jesus says to her, "You too, Lady. Get a grip. Come to me and I'll SHOW you 'blessed'!"

AS has been said more than once in this protracted conflict as and has been ignored without remission, Mary has nothing in the blessedness department that is not offered to all the blessed. Maybe different degree, maybe different sort of manifestations, but holiness and blessedness nonethe less.

(Completely irrelevant note: I just tried spell checking this tirade and, whoa! Sumpin's up with the spell checker! weird!)

875 posted on 04/07/2008 6:00:06 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg
[ So in the case of the woman who calls out "Blessed the womb that bore you and the breasts that have you suck," (from memory), I don't know what YOU see, But I see someone who is implicitly distancing herself from the love and holiness (and blessedness -- a word the pronunciation of which some Protestants seem unwilling to reveal) which Jesus offers to all of us in Him. ]

Many RCC's seem to be focusing on Jesus' flesh with their own flesh in a fleshly way(Mass, Mary, Saints), and many prostestants seem to focus on Jesus' Spirit with their spirit in a spiritual way(Bible, Body of Christ, Bride of Christ).. And thats the divide I think..

I, of course, see them both as denominations as well as Mormons and even JW's.. and tolerate them both.. Jeese, really what do you want from a sheep.. LOGIC?.. Heck you hold out a stick and allow a few sheep to jump it then remove the stick,,, the other sheep will continue jumping the imaginary stick.. Sheep are not supposed to be SMART...

878 posted on 04/07/2008 8:50:27 AM PDT by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole....)
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To: Mad Dawg
Those of us who have brains and use them (Am I getting the protestant snarky thing down correctly?) note that there is a difference between "equal" and "same". Further, we look at quotes in context and when we read Scripture we think not only about the one line but about the situation in which it is given.

Yes, there is a difference between 'equal' and the 'same', and Christ said all Christians were equal, not the same.

So, how does that distinction help your case?

So in the case of the woman who calls out "Blessed the womb that bore you and the breasts that have you suck," (from memory), I don't know what YOU see, But I see someone who is implicitly distancing herself from the love and holiness (and blessedness -- a word the pronunciation of which some Protestants seem unwilling to reveal) which Jesus offers to all of us in Him.

I didn't use that passage, I used Mk.3:34-35, where Christ said all those 'who do the will of the Father, the same is my brother, my sister and my mother'.

But even in that passage, the Lord corrects the woman (the only time the Lord corrects any woman in the Gospels) and states that blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it (Lk.11:28).

Now, if you want to actually deal with those verses say and not just throw up some smoke, then do so.

There is nothing complicated about them.

Here is a note from the RCC NAB,

.....it emphasizes that attentiveness to God's word is more important than biological relationship to Jesus

Regarding Mark, the note in the NAB states

Against this background, Jesus is informed of the arrival of his mother and brothers [sisters]. He responds by showing that not family ties but doing God's will is decisive in the kingdom.

But, despite the tendentious leaning on the word usually translated as "rather" I do not think this text itself will unequivocally support the notion that all of us are currently equally OR identically blessed. What it will support is that we are all offered blessedness in Christ AND all challenged to avoid distancing ourselves from that call by adopting a kind of "poor little old me attitude, I'd be so much better off if only I were blood kin to Jesus" attitude.

Well, that is a nice little theory, but it doesn't line up with what the passages actually say.

Christ makes it very clear that the issue in the Christian life is following His words and Mary wasn't considered anyone more special than anyone else when it came to that issue.

One of the things I LIKE about hosepipe's disparaging of "denominations", though I think his contention is wrong in the final analysis, is that I think a temptation common to all Xtians is to keep putting something between us and an encounter with Christ, so that a Catholic might be distressed to learn that there was no Mass in heaven (since it is ALL Mass all the time) or Protestant might be upset to find no Bible (since the Word Himself constantly and intimately gives himself to all the blessed).

Well, there is no 'mass' in heaven since Christ only needed to die once and doesn't need to re-crucified over and over again in a non-bloody replication of that sacrifice.(Heb.6:6)

Christ did say that heaven and earth will fade away, but His words never will.(Mk.13:31)

The woman calls out her cry, and Jesus says to her, "You too, Lady. Get a grip. Come to me and I'll SHOW you 'blessed'!"

Well, He could have easily said, yes, lady you are correct, my mother is blessed above all other human beings but...' , but Christ didn't say that, rather He corrected the woman and made her see that it was His words that were the issue, not Mary.

But when you want to avoid what scripture actually says, any reasoning will do.

AS has been said more than once in this protracted conflict as and has been ignored without remission, Mary has nothing in the blessedness department that is not offered to all the blessed. Maybe different degree, maybe different sort of manifestations, but holiness and blessedness nonethe less.

And where do you get the idea that Mary is anymore blessed than any other believer based on her relationship to Christ?

That is what you are basing the special relationship on, the mother-son relationship, which Christ himself stated was no longer relevant once His own ministry started.

921 posted on 04/07/2008 2:18:46 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration ("Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people".-John Adams)
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