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1. The plan of God for the salvation for sinful man was made before the world was created. It was then that Jesus submitted to the plan to become man and die for our sin. It was also when Mary was chosen to bear the humanity of the babe Jesus, and when the time had fully come she could not resist the overpowering of the Holy Spirit, just as Saul could not resist on the road to Damascus. The plan of God could not be thwarted, by Mary, Joseph, Herod or the “no vacancy” signs in Bethlehem.

Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, [so] shall it stand:

Isa 14:27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul [it]? and his hand [is] stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

Isa 46:8 -11 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring [it] again to mind, O ye transgressors. Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken [it], I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed [it], I will also do it.

Isa 46:12 -13 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that [are] far from righteousness: I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.

Eph 1:3-14 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; [even] in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Eph 3:8-11 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Phl 2:5-11 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of [things] in heaven, and [things] in earth, and [things] under the earth; And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

2. The plan was all of God with no mention of Mary having a part except as the mother of the child Jesus. Isaiah prophesied her calling just as Malachi prophesied John the Baptist’s calling and Isaiah prophesied Paul’s calling to cause Israel’s jealousy over the Gentiles; all mere vessels used in the eternal plan of salvation. All of the glory belongs to God and He shares it with no one.

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour

Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel

3. The importance of Mary is demonstrated by the fact that Jesus‘ birth is only reported in two of the Gospels; briefly in Matthew and more detailed in Luke. However in Matthew more space is given to convincing Joseph that Mary was not unfaithful than to the annunciation to Mary. Elizabeth gets as much coverage in Luke concerning the birth of John the Baptist as Mary gets. Mark and John give no mention of Jesus’ birth nor do any of the other writers. After the wedding at Cana at the beginning of Jesus’ public ministry, there are no recorded words of Mary, nor is she reported to have been at the tomb or at any of the resurrection appearances. After Acts 1 she is not mentioned again.

4. There is also the fact that the sentimental familial relationships here on earth are not the relationships in heaven. There are no husband/wife/children relations in heaven; we are all children of God. That’s the emphasis Jesus gives in His sermons.

Luk 20:34-36 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Luk 14:26 If any [man] come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Mar 3:33-35 And he answered them, saying, Who is my mother, or my brethren? And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Luk 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it.

5. Now, if in heaven believers are as angels, they are not to be worshiped or seen as any different than angels.

Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Rev 22:8-9 And I John saw these things, and heard [them]. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See [thou do it] not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

6. Mary, as a believer, will be just another part of the “Bride of Christ” just like all believers when Christ returns.

Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful post. It contains a good exposition of Calvinist faith. I agree that a Calvinist cannot develop a meaningful mariology or any form of venerating any saint at all, for the reasons you indicated.

With ease I can point out to you why Calvinist denial of free will is counterscriptural nonsense: the Beatitudes, the explanation of the Last Judgement in Matthew 25, and exhortations to virtue with which St. Paul ends all his letters, all contradict the concept that men can do nothing to save themelves or others.

However, this is not what I asked the "doctor" to do. I have no interest in fully figuring out Calvinism; what I heard was enough to dislike and despise this pseudoreligion. If you have an interest to find out what the Church teaches about predestination, election, and free will, I will do so on an apporpriate thread. In fact, I already did so: on my profile you will find this reference, Luther and Erasmus: The Controversy Concerning the Bondage of the Will , as well as an index to some important posts I and others made therein. See also St. Irenaeus on Free Will (Adversus Haereses IV,37).

Or perhaps, just like I post Catholic conversion stories, you could post a Calvinist conversion story where the convert explains how he came to believe in absence of free will, and what scripture he found to support the notion.

This is what I did ask: "If you have a scripture that you think contradicts [Catholic mariology], kindly make a reference to it and explain where do you think the contradiction is" (441). Let me now go over your post to see if any scriptural assertion there does the job I asked the "doctor" to do.

(1 and 2) simply mention that Mary was predestined from all eternity to give birth to Christ. That would seem to be alone a good reason to venerate her. I don't see from these sections anything that tells us not to venerate her.

(3) concentrates on Mary's role in the Nativity. It does not address the issue of venerating her or any saint, however insignificant in relative terms. But Mary also appears at the pivotal to us wedding at Cana, among the disciples during Jesus's ministry, where her identification with the Church is established, and an early act of veneration is recorded, at the crucifixion, at the Pentecost, and after her assumption in Apocalypse. So it is plain false to say that Mary is an inimportant character. Further, Mary's absence at the empty tomb is significant: we conclude from it that she expected the resurrection and was with the disciples as they were receving the happy news -- she was with Christ's church, as she ever is.

(4 and 5) start with a correct statement that angelic life of the heavenly dwellers such as Mary and the saints differs radically from our life on earth. From that it doesn't follow that all saints in heaven are the same and lack individuality, or are incapable of interceding for us. The proper conclusion is the opposite: that since the scripture shows angels interceding and having diverse roles, the saints who are like angels have different roles and intercede also.

(6) is unscriptural. The scripture speaks of various rewards in heaven on more than one occasion. There is no reason to speculate, like you do, that the unique role of Mary on earth does not extend after her glorious assumption, and in fact, Apocalypse 12 describes her unique role in heaven plainly.