Posted on 04/01/2008 4:23:02 PM PDT by NYer
I am interested and what you posted poses no contradiction to the role of the Blessed Virgin Mary in the economy of salvation, as dispenser of all grace, co-redemptrix, Queen of Heaven or any other exalted role she has, according to the Catholic source you posted.
If you have a scripture that you think contradicts all that, kindly make a reference to it and explain where do you think the contradiction is.
I hope you don’t mind my continued posting to you. I can’t use “one-liners” in Scripture. They are useless and it takes me a long time to type.
Just catching up on this thread...so pardon me if this has already been addressed...
Religion Forum Rule 1 Appendix A:
Anybody attempting to caucus a "conversion thread" will be immediately ridiculed and harassed. The caucus designation will be removed forthwith.
If a person converts from "religion 'A'" to "religion 'B'," supporters of "religion 'B'" must not 'caucus' the thread with the story, as those members of "religion'A'" must be allowed to:
Naturally, members of "religion 'C'," "religion 'D'," or 'religion "E"' will need to be afforded the opportunity to chime in...even though they were simply taking a break from a thread castigating 'religion "A"'...after all, they must maintain solidarity.
What I am looking forward to, though, is the long-awaited implementation of Free Republic draft Rule 1 Annex E:
Caucus/Devotional status may be revoked if a doctrine advocated through that devotional are found to be offensive to another confession.
Ah. Now it's all becoming clearer why and how the RCC keeps its members in such a fog.
The RCC teaches nonsense and then tells the world to disprove it.
When it is disproven by the Scriptures, the RCC says "so what?"
When asked for Scriptural proof of its nonsensical beliefs, the RCC responds, "you first."
LOL. Come on, Alex. Show us where the Bible says Mary is a co-redeemer and a mediator and a reconciler. While you're at it, show us where priests are "another Christ." (Because you know that one can be disproven in a heartbeat.)
I asked you a simple and logical question. You say, Catohlic Mariology “is disproven by the Scriptures” and I ask you to show me. When you are done — you love quoting scripture do you not? — we can discuss all these other subjects.
Diabolical. Interesting choice of words. That's exactly what I think of the motivation of all the Catholic Thread disrupters. Not everyone who disagrees with Catholic Doctrine just those who go from thread to thread looking for arguements.
The Order of Melchezidek, Christ our High Priest, the Eucharist
Mark 14-22/26 “While they were eating, he took bread,said the blessing, broke it and gave it to them, and said, “Take it; this is my body. Then he took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them and they all drank from it. He said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed for many. Amen, I say to you, I shall not drink again the fruit of the vine until the when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.” Then, after singing a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.”
Matthew 26-26
“While they were eating, Jesus took bread,and said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body. Then he took the cup, gave thanks and gave it to them saying, “Drink from it all of you, for this my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you, from now on I shall not drink this fruit of the vine until the day when I drink it with you new in the Kingdom of my Father.”
(Mark uses the term “blood” as the seat of life which placed on the altar makes atonement.)
The Eucharist is not simply the bread alone. It is a sacrament that is so many other things besides. Because it is the eve of the Passion, it anticipates the wedding feast of the Lamb in the heavenly Jerusalem.
At the breaking of the bread, the disciples will once again recognize Jesus when he is present with them at the supper when he appears to them to them after His Resurrection on the road to Emmaus.
Luke 24-28/3 “As they approached the village to which they were going, he gave the impression that he was going on farther. Buth they urged him, “Stay with us, for it is nearly evening and the day is almost over.” So he went in to stay with them.
And it happened that, while he was with them at table, he took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and gave it to them. With that their eyes were opened and they recognized him but he vanished from their sight.”
It is this expression that the first Christians will use to designate their Eucharistic assemblies. By doing so they signified that all who eat the one broken bread, Christ, enter into communion with him and form one body with him.
It is the Memorial. It is the Holy Sacrifice because it makes present the one sacrifice of Christ and includes the Churches offering.
It is the offering of bread and wine that was prefigured by King Melchizedek. The multiplication of the loaves to feed the multitude, and the wine at the wedding in Cana all lead to the hour of Glorification of our Lord.
But above all, it is His Body and His Blood of the new and everlasting covenant.
“Do this in memory of me” the command of Jesus to repeat His actions and words “until He comes again” does not only ask us to remember Jesus and what He did, It is directed at the liturgical celebration, by the apostles and their successors of the memorial of Christ, of his life, of his death, of his Resurrection. From the beginning the Church has been faithful to the Lord’s command. Acts 2-42/46
Our great truth is “Christ has died. Christ is Risen. Christ will come again.”
But those who did not understand his teaching walked away from the Bread of Life.
“John 21-24/25
It is this disciple who testifies to these things and has written them and we know that his testimony is true. There are also many other things that Jesus did, but if these were to be described individually, I do not think the whole world would contain the books that would be written.”
So not everything is in Scripture. The Apostles had knowledge and tradition and experiences that weren’t written down but probably oral tradition at first.
Ask a bibliolator a biblical question, and she scatters. Figures.
Those disciples who detested the teaching of Body and Blood of Christ and walked away,
John 6-24/71 When the crowd saw the neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they themselves got into boats and came to Capernaum looking for Jesus. And when they found him, they said to him, Rabbi, when did you get here?
Jesus answered them and said, “Amen amen, I say to you, you are looking for menot because you saw signs but because you ate the loaves and were filled (multiplication of the loaves). Do not work for food that perishes but for the food that endures for eternal life which the Son of Man will give you. For on him the Father, God has set his seal. So they said to him, “What can we do to accomplish the works of God.” And Jesus answered:
“This is the work of God that you believe in the one he sent.”
So they asked him, “What can we do to accomplish the works of God? Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in the one he sent.”
So they said to him “What sign can you do, that we may see and believe in you? What can you do? Our ancestors ate manna in the desert, as it is written, “He gave them bread from heaven to eat.”
So, Jesus said to them, “Amen, amen I say to you, it was not Moses who gave the bread from heaven; my father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of heaven is that which comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.
“So they said to him: Sir give us this bread always. Jesus said to them: I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me will never hunger and whoever believes in me will never thirst. But I told you that although you have seen me, you do not believe. Everything that the Father gives me will come to me and I will not reject anyone who comes to me because I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me.
The Jews murmured about him......I am the living bread from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever, and the bread that I give is my flesh for the life of the world......unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you....As a result of this many of his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.”
(The greek verb to eat was to gnaw or munch and it was more indicative of the concept of eating food. The verb changed over time to to eat.) It doesn’t mean Word or knowledge. It means eating.
We are gathered together for the Paschal mystery that is Christ present in the Eucharist Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity. It is His memorial and His command. It is not a re-inactment, or a re-sacrifice it is not something happening over and over. It happened once for all time.
“Ask a bibliolator a biblical question, and she scatters. Figures.”
This is why I hate to argue. In order to discuss apologetics, the WHOLE passages and their related passages which could be anywhere from Genesis to Revelation back and forth must be written and discussed.
I just can’t pluck a verse, well I can, but it doesn’t make much sense to just throw something out there out of context or incompletely.
Catholics KNOW the bible. It is just that we know it cannot be captured in sentences unconnected to everything else.
If I speak of Revelation, I have to refer to Isaiah, to Genesis to Psalms, to Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, to Jude, to so much and so on. It takes a lot of time (and typing).
I have it pointless to argue Truth with people wed to their religion, be it RC or Hinduism. Read the Bible with a humble heart and ask God (not His “mother”) to reveal Truth to you. He can do that, I can’t. I tired of trying.
I swear I read:
“Caucus/Devotional status may be revoked if a doctrine advocated through that devotional are found to be offensive to another confusion.”
Just when I have the time and inclination to really discuss Scripture, everybody bolts.
Is it something I said?
To Dr. Eckleburg’s comments, I would add John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Is that clear enough? Born again, saved unto life eternal, converted, et al. - not of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
Paul makes this explicitly clear in Romans 9:
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
God is SOVEREIGN.
That’s nice. What’s your point. Do you have one?
Actually, Romans 9 1-13 is not quite as facile as just stating God is Sovereign.
Paul was concerned that he needed to explain to the Christian community the rejection of Christ by the Jews. He grieved over their unbelief. It also points to some concepts about election, Jacob who was chosen and Esau who was not.
Election in this case means that the gift of faith is an enactment of God’s mercy.
But, Lex, of course, you know passages.
A lot of it was in Polycarp's laptop which he carelessly left at a bistro in Actium. Somehow it got to Geneva ... and the rest is history.
If the post was intended for you, you would know the point. If you want to pick up a conversation mid-way through it, read the related posts. I seriously doubt you are actually interested in the point, as Truth is what most people try to hide from.
If I say often enough one thing that Calvin said and about which there is little difference of opinion, then maybe you’ll come to see that everything else he said is true too. I think that’s the point.
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