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Symbols and Systems: Why Catholics and Protestants Don't See Eye to Eye
Inside Catholic ^ | 3/27/2008 | Rev. Dwight Longenecker

Posted on 03/28/2008 8:25:48 AM PDT by Alex Murphy

My niece's husband is a trainee Baptist pastor. Jimbo's hip, friendly, and fun to be with. He's smart and theologically savvy. I like him. He loves Jesus and believes the Bible, and on most moral and doctrinal issues I can affirm what he affirms. We agree on a lot.

But even when we agree, we don't see eye to eye. Somehow we seem to have reached our religious conclusions from different starting points and through different routes. A chapter in Mark Massa's book Anti-Catholicism in America illuminated the problem for me. Massa quotes an important theological work by David Tracy, The Analogical Imagination, in which he argues that, underneath our religious language, customs, liturgies, rules, and rubrics, there exist more fundamental ways of seeing.

Catholic Symbols

Tracy says that Catholics have a basic concept of religion that is analogical. To put it simply, Catholics use things they know to try to understand the things they don't. Catholics seek to know God and His work in the world through material things: water, wine, bread, oil, incense, candles, images, and so on. For Catholics, some of these things are more than just symbols -- they are sacraments. They not only point to God, they convey His power and grace to us through the mystery of the Church.

For Catholics, this way of understanding the world, God, the cosmos, and everything is rich and multilayered. The Church is not only a symbol of the Body of Christ -- it is the Body of Christ. The bread brought forward by the members of the Body of Christ becomes itself the Body of Christ to feed the Body of Christ the Church.

The Catholic imagination and the Catholic soul are nurtured in a multitude of different sacraments, sacramentals, signs, and symbols. As a result, all physical things are part of God's plan of salvation. Life in all its fullness abounds with the mystery of God's life and love working through the world. This analogical way of seeing is dependent on, and comes from, the basic fact of God's revelation -- the Incarnation of His son, Jesus Christ.

Protestant Systems

In contrast, my nephew-in-law Jimbo, as a good Baptist, shares a radically different perspective on the whole shooting match. Jimbo, like every Protestant, has grown up within a basic religious paradigm that is more systematic. Tracy calls this "dialectical language." He says Protestant theologians, rather than seeing how physical things and human culture connect us to God, emphasize the radical separation between God and the physical world. The Protestant focuses primarily on man's alienation from God, the fact of sin, the need for redemption, and the need for man's response.

The linear thought process is like any other dialectic process: "Thesis = we sin; antithesis = God says 'no' to our attempts to save ourselves; synthesis = God saves us when we confess the truth and justice of God's 'no' to our sin."

The Protestant dialectical process means that Protestants emphasize the individual's existential inner response to God rather than the idea that God is "with us" working to save us in and through the physical and historical world.

Therefore, the idea that a visible church, a historic apostolic succession, a priesthood, and sacraments are necessary is -- at the very root of Protestant thinking -- alien and dangerous. For the typical Protestant, the Catholic Church is, by definition, worldly. Its very nature is materialistic and compromising with the world, the flesh, and the devil. For the Protestant there is therefore no relationship between Christ and culture. The faith is set up in dialectical opposition to the wisdom of man and the ways of the world.

Massa quotes sociologist Andrew Greeley in summation:

Therefore the fundamental differences between Catholicism and Protestantism are not doctrinal or ethical. The different propositional codes of the two heritages are but manifestations, tips of the iceberg, of more fundamentally differing sets of symbols. The Catholic ethic is "communitarian"; and the Protestant "individualistic" because of the preconscious "organizing" pictures of the two traditions that shape meaning and response to life for members of the respective heritages are different. Catholics and Protestants "see the world differently."

So what does all this mean for Jimbo and me? It means that even when we agree, we don't agree for the same reasons. For example, Jimbo and I may both sign up to work at the soup kitchen on Saturday mornings. As a Catholic, I'm more likely to see that hungry tramp as part of my human family whether he is a Catholic or not. I should feed him because he too is created in the image of God. In feeding him I am more likely to believe that I am also feeding Christ, and that this, in itself, is not only worthy but part of my own salvation, and part of the salvation of the world.

Jimbo wants to feed the homeless too, but he is more likely to do so because he wants to be personally obedient to the commands of Christ. He sees the poor hungry tramp as a lost soul who needs not only a sandwich but a savior. In fact, it's likely that Jimbo will give him the sandwich because he is concerned for the tramp's soul and wants to share the gospel with him and make sure he is saved.

This basic disconnect between our ways of thinking affects virtually everything. Because of the different perspectives, the Baptist and the Catholic will worship differently, pray differently, read the Bible differently, vote differently, produce radically different literature, art, and music. The two may share the same moral values, but they will do so for different reasons. They may share the same essential beliefs, but they will see them from different perspectives.

When we are engaged in dialogue with Protestants over doctrinal or ethical issues, our discussions will be illuminated if we understand the underlying differences of perspective. Furthermore, in the culture wars in which we are now engaged, Catholics and Protestants need to be allies. For the alliance to be strong and positive, both sides need to understand the essential differences of perspective.

Good fences make good neighbors. Only when we understand what truly separates us will we be able to work together with Protestants for the salvation of our society and the ultimate unity of Christ's Church.


TOPICS: Catholic; Ecumenism; Evangelical Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: allies; bodyofchrist; catholics; protestants; unity
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To: OpusatFR; Dr. Eckleburg; HarleyD; Gamecock; fortheDeclaration; wmfights
“...Protestants and Catholics is that Protestants believe Scripture is the inspired word of God and the Holy Spirit is God’s means of instructing men through His word.”

Let me fix that for you:

Catholics believe Scripture is the inspired word of God and the Holy Spirit is God’s means of instructing men through His word.”

There. Fixed it.

Sooooooooooooo, then, . . . .

Please explain . . .

What exactly did you fix? How? Why?

121 posted on 03/30/2008 4:55:41 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Quix

The sentence is:

Catholics believe Scripture is the inspired word of God and the Holy Spirit is God’s means of instructing men through His word.”

It says what it says.

I’m not diagraming the sentence although, apparently, I may have to if you do not get it.


122 posted on 03/30/2008 5:09:21 PM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: OpusatFR
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh . . . more avoiding the original post and any explanation of the wording in it . . . while masterfully getting in a personal dig.

Sooooooooooooooooooo impressive.

123 posted on 03/30/2008 5:25:46 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Alex Murphy

Interesting article. The author is straightforward about who he is and strives to give certain objective observations about the different faith traditions. It is a bit sweeping but he does seem to grasp some fundamental zeitgeist within the theologies.
What did you think?


124 posted on 03/30/2008 5:27:46 PM PDT by TradicalRC (Ferraro/Wright: democrat racism rears its ugly head.)
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To: Resolute Conservative

Yup. I’ve got a Budgie, Peanut, Bubblegum and Smoochie.


125 posted on 03/30/2008 5:30:04 PM PDT by TradicalRC (Ferraro/Wright: democrat racism rears its ugly head.)
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To: Quix

It’s not really that hard.


126 posted on 03/30/2008 5:32:22 PM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: OpusatFR

Evidently, neither is evasion of responsibility for what was originally written.


127 posted on 03/30/2008 5:34:15 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: Quix

Read post57 and put it together.

Catholics believe Scripture is the inspired word of God and the Holy Spirit is God’s means of instructing men through His word.”

You’ve made an assumption from your own paradigm.

Good night.


128 posted on 03/30/2008 5:42:19 PM PDT by OpusatFR
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To: OLD REGGIE; Dr. Eckleburg

I get such a kick out of my protestant brethren who deride the instruction of men in the Catholic Church who “get in the way of Scripture” and are “trying to take the place of Christ” and in the same breath refer CONSTANTLY to the vaunted souls of the protty persuasion such as Dr. Bahnsen or Oswald Chambers or John Calvin or Martin Luther or John Wesley etc. ad infinitum.
Keep up the good work.


129 posted on 03/30/2008 6:30:27 PM PDT by TradicalRC (Ferraro/Wright: democrat racism rears its ugly head.)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant; OLD REGGIE; Religion Moderator

I don’t try to spam each and every thread, but I do put links out there in order to offer more information on the subject.

Who knows, someone just may stop and read one and think about the other point of view.

I am not a spammer.


130 posted on 03/30/2008 6:36:00 PM PDT by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: OLD REGGIE
And I have spent a great deal of time presenting what "Catholics", including many Priests and Bishops, actually practice as opposed to Catholic Doctrine.

Perhaps you should concern yourself with Protestant folks such as Bishop Vicki and Reverend Wright and Reverend Gretta Vosper.

131 posted on 03/30/2008 6:58:10 PM PDT by TradicalRC (Ferraro/Wright: democrat racism rears its ugly head.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Catholicism's symbolism has led most modern Catholics to regard the Bible as nothing but didactic mythology, Judaism's mitzvot (tefillin, tzitziyyot, etc.), while similar to Catholic "sacraments," have not led Orthodox Jews to redefine the Torah as a big Aesop's Fable.

With a gap of a few years, I have been Catholic my whole life. I have Never met a Catholic who believes what you think they believe.

132 posted on 03/30/2008 7:07:55 PM PDT by TradicalRC (Ferraro/Wright: democrat racism rears its ugly head.)
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To: narses; Alex Murphy
Authorities cited: Fr. Mark Massa, SJ; David Tracy & Andrew Greeley.

So this whole Catholic-Protestant rift thingy is just a problem of semiotics.

I guess we all ought to be reading Ferdinand de Saussure before we look at the Bible, Councils, Fathers & Doctors.

133 posted on 03/30/2008 7:26:42 PM PDT by Dajjal
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To: Quix

Amen, Quix.


134 posted on 03/30/2008 7:45:40 PM PDT by Marysecretary (.GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL)
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To: Marysecretary

THANKS THANKS.

Much appreciated.
Blessings,


135 posted on 03/30/2008 7:54:39 PM PDT by Quix (GOD ALONE IS GOD; WORTHY; PAID THE PRICE; IS COMING AGAIN; KNOWS ALL; IS LOVING; IS ALTOGETHER GOOD)
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To: sandyeggo
Which is why I think it’s a good idea to take a break from FR every now and again, take a couple days off and get out of the debate loop. Life is beautiful - and both the joys and the sorrows mixed in together are gifts from God.

Sadly, I think you are right. One of my Lenten penances was to give up the FreeRepublic. While I don't post often I read most of the religion threads. I remarked to my mom, last week, that I was much happier because I was not reading these threads.
136 posted on 03/31/2008 12:24:09 AM PDT by Talking_Mouse (O Lord, destroy Islam by converting the Muslims to Christianity.)
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To: TradicalRC
With a gap of a few years, I have been Catholic my whole life. I have Never met a Catholic who believes what you think they believe.

What planet are you from? Better yet, what dimension are you from?

I suggest you pay a little closer attention to your co-religionists on this forum when they are saying precisely what I said they say. For some reasons, you Catholics who don't believe such things always seem to disappear and allow them to speak for all Catholics without a peep of protest or dissent.

137 posted on 03/31/2008 5:46:59 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Hachodesh hazeh lakhem ro'sh chodashim; ri'shon hu' lakhem lechodshei hashanah.)
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Comment #138 Removed by Moderator

To: Campion
To paint Catholicism as a religion formed and imposed by state sanction, and Protestantism as its opposite, doesn't fit the historical record in the second millennium at all.

It doesn't surprise me that you wouldn't follow the point I was making. It seems that any observation that is not favorable always gets that response.

It really isn't that long ago, even in America, that Catholics were widely suspected of having some sort of divided loyalty, as though their Catholic faith was not truly compatible with American citizenship.

Without realizing it you make my point. Why would that prejudice exist, if not for the historic connection between church and state.

139 posted on 03/31/2008 7:10:14 AM PDT by wmfights (Believe - THE GOSPEL - and be saved)
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To: TradicalRC; OLD REGGIE; Dr. Eckleburg
I get such a kick out of my protestant brethren who deride the instruction of men in the Catholic Church who “get in the way of Scripture” and are “trying to take the place of Christ” and in the same breath refer CONSTANTLY to the vaunted souls of the protty persuasion...

I do notice a lot of supporting Scripture and direct quotes from documents so any reader can discern the truth of an issue for themselves.

140 posted on 03/31/2008 7:15:13 AM PDT by wmfights (Believe - THE GOSPEL - and be saved)
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