LOGIC AND THE FOUNDATIONS OF PROTESTANTISM

The Coming Home Network ^ | Brian W. Harrison

[dan1123]

Not the same deceptions possible before it was codified.

But it could be close, right? Someone could come along and twist Scripture or add on to it and still deceive, right?

[papertyger]

But it could be close, right? Someone could come along and twist Scripture or add on to it and still deceive, right?

No. What is, and is not, Scripture would be impossible to fake at this point.

[thefrankbaum]

Confessions to a priest...confessions of certain sins over others, confessions of any sin (remembered, realized or not) as a requirement to keep your salvation.

I'm curious how you interpret John 20:21-23:

"He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained."

That seems fairly clear that Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance. Is there another way to interpret it?

prayers to dead saints

Just to be clear, the Church does not require the faithful to ask for the intercession of the Saints - it is encouraged, but in no way required.

baptism into the Catholic Church

The Church recognizes all baptisms done in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as valid baptisms into the Body of Christ.

[dan1123]

The authority of the Church is not based solely on the renaming of Peter episode, but also, and, in fact, primarily on... (Mt 18)

Where is it stated that this is only to Peter?

Consider Matthew 18:18-20

“Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. “Again I say to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

That doesn't sound exclusive to Peter. And you bind and loose using keys...

But what about the renaming episode?

Peter is the first who showed faith saying Jesus is God, and is granted the name as an echo of Jesus (the rock) as we are all in calling ourselves Christians (little Christs). The foundation is Christ, and the Church is built though belief as Peter showed in Matt. 16.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Idolatry is supposed to repulse Christians who have been given the grace to know the difference between Jesus Christ, the only mediator between God and men, and assorted ersatz deities which do not redeem but only serve to further condemn.

[dan1123]

That seems fairly clear that Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance. Is there another way to interpret it?

But the Holy Spirit was passed on to others when they were baptized. Oh, I think you mean to ask about verse 23. This is the keys to the kingdom as before, which is the gospel message itself. It was Jesus' payment for our penalties that forgave all our sins, but we still had to hear it before we could accept that forgiveness. The message has power and refusing it to someone was up to them.

The Church recognizes all baptisms done in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as valid baptisms into the Body of Christ.

Really. I heard differently, and that it was to such a point that Communion (Eucharist?) is refused to those baptized in Protestant denominations.

[papertyger]

...Christians who have been given the grace to know the difference between Jesus Christ, the only mediator between God and men...

Mediator of what? Clearly Scripture shows the Blessed Virgin Mary was an intercessor superior to even Abraham.

[thefrankbaum]

This is the keys to the kingdom as before, which is the gospel message itself. It was Jesus' payment for our penalties that forgave all our sins, but we still had to hear it before we could accept that forgiveness. The message has power and refusing it to someone was up to them.

See, I disagree here on it being the Keys. The Keys are explicitly mentioned as being handed to Peter. In both John and Matthew 18:18 the power of binding and loosing are mentioned without any explicit reference to the Keys. In Matthew, it is specific that Jesus conveys this power to all the Apostles before Peter again comes forward to speak one-on-one with Jesus. If the Keys were to be the Good News, why would that imagery appear only in a conversation explicitly between Jesus and Peter, and then neglected when the same power was passed to the other Apostles? Further, how do the Keys relate to Isaiah 22:22 where the "key to the House of David" is a symbol of authority?

Really. I heard differently, and that it was to such a point that Communion (Eucharist?) is refused to those baptized in Protestant denominations.

Baptism done in the name of the Trinity is valid - however, Protestants are denied the Holy Eucharist not due to an invalid baptism, but rather because they denied the Real Presence of Jesus Christ. Under John 6:54

"Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you"

Catholics believe that the Eucharist is the True Flesh and Blood of the Christ, in accordance with His Words. But that is a whole 'nother conversation...

[Quix]

I’d comment, dear brother . . . alas . . .

some things are beyond words.

I do admire your patience.

[Quix]

The Catholic Church is a divine insitution established by Christ in one of those self-evident scriptural passages, and not a "committee".

What revisionist rubber Bible, rubber history based jokes the RC edifice propagates! So uproariously funny except when they are eternally sad.

[Radix]

I really need to ping this above post, simply for my own future edification.

[Quix]

Hmmmm, Gamecock . . . doesn’t quite sound like selective perception . . .

But there sure seems to be a lot of energetic diligence to do a lot of other . . . rather . . . dubious things. LOL.

Ahhhhh well, we Prottys should just keep our place and remember that we were created for target practice by the RC edifice . . . that !!!!TRADITIONAL!!!! monstrosity of political power mongering, history mangling, Bible mangling, cobbled together 300-400 years after Christ out of skillful political maneuvers and Roman military and economic might. Terribly righteous, those latter two. LOL.

/sar

[Quix]

Thanks for your excellent posts, as usual.

[Quix]

Now look, Brother . . .

you have no right to be historically accurate!

You have no right to be Biblically accurate!

You have no right to be logical!

After all, the RC edifice magicsterical has spicked and therefore all else must remain silent.

After all, who knows when they might get their . . . dander . . . in an uproar and implement another Inquisition because everyone else didn’t believe the same lies they pretended to believe!

Sometimes, I think that it must be Monty Python’s ancestors who thunk up the Roman edifice. It’s almost too much of an evil farce to be real in too many corners of those lichen encrusted towers.

[dan1123]

See, I disagree here on it being the Keys. The Keys are explicitly mentioned as being handed to Peter.

Well, if you want the specific word "keys", Jesus has them in Revelation 1:18. Maybe Peter gave them back. :-P

If the Keys were to be the Good News, why would that imagery appear only in a conversation explicitly between Jesus and Peter, and then neglected when the same power was passed to the other Apostles?

There's the problem with keeping the keys separate from binding and loosing. Bind and loose are associated directly with the keys in Matt. 16:18, and then he uses the same language in Matt 18:18, it has to be referencing the power of the Keys.

Further, how do the Keys relate to Isaiah 22:22 where the "key to the House of David" is a symbol of authority?

What was the point of the House of David? What was the point or the lineage of David? Jesus. He is the everlasting King in the line of David, and the authority. But what does he do? He asks us, starting with the disciples, to let others into the kingdom of God. What does He give for that purpose? A helper (the Holy Spirit) and Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven--the Gospel. Both are right next to each other in John 20:22-23.

[rbmillerjr]

“the RC edifice . . . that !!!!TRADITIONAL!!!! monstrosity of political power mongering, history mangling, Bible mangling, cobbled together 300-400 years after Christ”

Catholics are hardly Bible mangling. In fact, you can thank St. Jerome for translating the Holy Bible and the Catholic Church for authorizing the original canon of the Holy Word.

“300-400 years after Christ”

Actually Christ set up his Church with the Apostles He Chose and the first Pope, Peter. We Catholics are the original Church of Christ...you may want to be careful about mocking what Christ has initiated.

Peace be with you. Praise God for the graces he has bestowed upon you as a Protestant.

[Freedom'sWorthIt]

“We can’t save ourselves, only God can.”

Thank you.

Yes, indeed.

ALL facets of our Salvation, including our sanctification (the process by which we are made Holy) and our glorification, the eternal state in eternal heaven with Jesus Christ where we will glorify Jesus Christ together forever (ah, won’t that be wonderful!), are from God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. Yes we are to “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”, knowing that it is God who is transforming us from within, who cleanses us from all sin as we confess our sins TO HIM, who renews our minds as we dwell on His Word, who conforms us to the image of His dear Son.

We walk by faith - meaning - we trust in the One who called us, who saved us, who is sanctifying us, who will glorify us - trusting in HIS FINISHED WORK on the Cross and in His Resurrection, trusting that when He says that when we are Born Again by the Holy Spirit, that we are, therefore, NEW CREATURES, walking in the power of the Resurrection Life He died to bring us.....He means it. We can believe Him. We walk by faith in what GOD SAYS (and Jesus Christ is GOD, the living Word).

Paul said this before there was a Roman Catholic church.

Sorry to jump in here so late - having to catch up on this thread.

I regret there is quite a bit of slinging vituperative remarks back and forth......but, then, I’ve not been on many of these types of threads - preferring to avoid the “debates” and concentrate on what unites us.

Sadly, our unChristian words to each other matter a great deal because we,who both claim to be Christians, belonging to Jesus Christ, are “discussing Christianity” before a watching world.

Later would like to retell a story upon which (perhaps) we can together rejoice - as those who belong to Jesus Christ! and who long to carry out Jesus’ command to take the Gospel to all the world, baptizing them and making disciples of all nations!

[Radix]

"What is the will of the Father?

Obey the commandments, deny self, give what you have to the poor, take up your cross and follow Christ."

 

How about Acts 2:37-38, in context with Jerimiah 31:33?

 

 

[Quix]

Next we'll be told it's idolatry to put flowers on Grandma's grave

Sounds like that very challenging task for some nutty cult reps to distinguish between

SAME

vs

DIFFERENT

yet again.

I guess the intent of such preposterous assertions is to proudly proclaim how diligent folks are in worshipping Grandma . . . a la the Chinese?

I wasn't aware the nutty RC edifice cult was so much

the SAME

as traditional Chinese ancestor worship.

But it's odd . . .
1. I've never seen altars in RC cult homes to their ancestors.
2. I've never heard them sing any songs to their ancestors.
3. I've never read any poetry to their ancestors.
4. I've never seen them put plastic idols of their ancestors on the dashboards of their cars.
5. I've never seen them finger beads while praying to their ancestors.
6. I've never seen them twist rubber Bible verses around their ancestors' lives as an excuse to worship them.
7. I've never heard of the satanic oligarchy and their fallen angel/nephilium/watcher/ET cohorts staging any hoaxed 'visitations' by their departed ancestors in a way to foster worship of said ancestors.

Yet, we are supposed to believe that WE BELIEVE putting flowers on relatives' graves = all the Magnificent Magical Mary Earth Mother Maryolatry stuff in the lives of the nutty cult RC reps???

That SAME vs DIFFERENT handicap is turning out to be a horrendously appalling problem, it seems to me. I had no idea it was such a huge thing.

I wonder . . . is there something in the "holy" water that washes discrimmination skills right out of the fabric of the bodily being of the RC cult's RELIGIOUS serfs?

Perhaps it's an organizational prince and power of the air that early on deluded folks into construing everything having to do with the IN-GROUP of the nutty RC edifice cult with "holy" and everything having to do with all other OUT-GROUP folks = evil.

That would be a pretty wholesale mangling of the distinctions between SAME vs DIFFERENT.

Yes, that's right, serfs, line up right here . . . all together now . . . genuflect on cue . . . pansy beads on cue . . . "holy" water on cue . . . bowing to the idols on cue . . . now take the mind numbing soma capsule on cue . . .

I must say . . . it's been a pretty effective way to homogonize a lot of faithful RELIGIOUS mind-numbed slaves for a lot of centuries.

But it must have been some trick initially around 300-400 AD to convince folks that the magicsterical = the Apostles. Oh, that's right . . . they had lots of political power and clever oratory over a lot of uneducated serfs . . . how could I forget.

. . .

. . .

[Quix]

INDEED!

Thanks, as usual.