Posted on 03/09/2008 8:33:45 PM PDT by Pyro7480
"At that time Jesus said to the multitudes of the Jews: 'Which of you shall convince me of sin? If I say the truth to you, why do you not believe me? He that is of God, heareth the words of God. Therefore you hear them not, because you are not of God.' The Jews therefore answered, and said to him: Do not we say well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil? Jesus answered: 'I have not a devil: but I honour my Father, and you have dishonoured me. But I seek not my own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. Amen, amen I say to you: If any man keep my word, he shall not see death for ever.' The Jews therefore said: Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest: If any man keep my word, he shall not taste death for ever. Art thou greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? and the prophets are dead. Whom dost thou make thyself? Jesus answered: 'If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father that glorifieth me, of whom you say that he is your God. And you have not known him, but I know him. And if I shall say that I know him not, I shall be like to you, a liar. But I do know him, and do keep his word. Abraham your father rejoiced that he might see my day: he saw it, and was glad.' The Jews therefore said to him: Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said to them: 'Amen, amen I say to you, before Abraham was made, I am.' They took up stones therefore to cast at him. But Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple."
Works for me.
My Jewish friends were big on partying. I tried my best to keep up
I don’t know, I make all my neighbors stay on their land and leave me alone nowadays, lol
*grin* Good.
What about Ron Paul?
He has quite a following too.
lol Well said. I'm going to have to remember that line.
I find a shotgun helps clarify just ezzackly what kind of mercy we all have in mind here. Rock salt is merciful compared to slugs.
Good fences make good neighbors — Robert Frost
May I ask a couple of questions?
What do you mean by “Remain a Jew of the Jews in the service of your King” and What do you mean by “Gentiles who are in the Messiah”?
Thanks
and not only that, but if I had had the last say one time there would have been an intermarriage and even more love demonstrated, lol.
By "Gentiles who are in Messiah" I mean true Gentile Christians (as opposed to pew-sitters or "default" Christians), those who by faith in Israel's King have been grafted into Israel's root.
By "remain a Jew," I mean that I do not wish for more of my Jewish brothers and sisters to assimilate into a Gentile Christian culture, e.g., celebrating Christmas and Easter instead of the Lord's Appointed Times, ceasing to observe the Torah in general, and dropping out of the Jewish community to become part of a Gentile community.
In other words, I object to the Christian tendency (which continues in most churches) to make eating a ham sandwich a test of faith. Rather, I agree with the Apostles that Jews who believe in the Messiah should stay Jewish--circumcising their sons, be zealous for the Torah, and keep their traditions (Acts 21:20ff).
It is as great a sin to force Gentilization as it is to force Judaizing.
In other words, you know you’ve lost, so you attack the messenger...
Attack the argument if you find it wrong, but you’d better have some good ammunition.
No, for it clearly illustrates the irrational beliefs of those who believe in Jesus, who failed in the prerequisites for being the messiah.
They get frustrated went the truth is shown, and scurry back to their fantasies.
:-)
As to why you'd not try and find out what it meant yourself, well...
---
Fakir
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Herbert Ponting's 1907 photograph of "a fakir in Benares" (Varanasi), IndiaA fakir or faqir is a Sufi, especially one who performs feats of endurance or apparent magic. Derived from faqr (Arabic), Lit: poverty. [1]
The word is usually used to refer to either the spiritual recluse or eremite or the common street beggar who chants holy names, scriptures or verses. Its current idiomatic usage developed primarily in Mughal-era India, where the term was injected into local idiom through the Persian-speaking courts of Muslim rulers. When used referring to somber spiritual miracle-makers, fakir is applied primarily to Sufi, but also Hindu ascetics.
Many stereotypes of the great fakir exist, among the more extreme being the picture of a near-naked man effortlessly walking barefoot on burning coals, sitting or sleeping on a bed of nails, levitating during bouts of meditation, or "living on air" (refusing all food). It is also used, usually sarcastically, for a common street beggar who chants holy names, scriptures or verses without ostensibly having any spiritual advancement.
It has become a common Urdu and Hindi word for a beggar. When applied to Hindu mystics, the term is essentially a non-Indian word for Sadhus, Gurus, Swamis, or Yogis.
Sir Winston Churchill once contemptuously criticised Mahatma Gandhi for posing as a half naked fakir, "[i]t is alarming and also nauseating to see Mr. Gandhi, a seditious middle-temple lawyer now posing as a fakir of a type well known in the East, striding half-naked up the steps of the viceregal palace, while he is still organizing and conducting a defiant campaign of civil disobedience, to parley on equal terms with the representatives of the king-emperor."
Daniel 9:26
After after those sixty-two weeks, the anointed one will disappear and vanish. The army of a leader who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but its end will come through a flood. Desolation is decreed until the end of war.
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And 'the anointed one' is just someone who, historically speaking, is mostly likely to be a king in the manner of Saul and David (both anointed).
For ask now of the days that are past, which were before thee, since the day that God created man upon the earth, and ask from the one side of heaven unto the other, whether there hath been any such thing as this great thing is, or hath been heard like it?
4:33 Did ever people hear the voice of God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as thou hast heard, and live ?
4:34 Or hath God assayed to go and take him a nation from the midst of another nation, by temptations, by signs, and by wonders, and by war, and by a mighty hand, and by a stretched out arm, and by great terrors, according to all that the LORD your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?
4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.
God can take another nation ie a Christian nation out of a Gentile nation if He so pleases and He does it with signs and miracles, proving that He is God.
Actually, Jesus failed what was needed to be considered a Messiah.
From: www.jewsforjudaism.org
THE MESSIAH ACCORDING TO JUDAISM
One of the basic premises upon which Christianity rests is that Jesus was the Messiah predicted in the Jewish Bible. Judaism has always rejected this belief. Since the goal of “Hebrew Christian” missionaries is to convince Jews that Jesus did in fact fulfill the requirements of the promised Messiah, it is necessary to examine the Jewish understanding of the Messiah to understand why such claims are simply not true.
THE HEBREW ROOTS OF THE WORD “MESSIAH”
The Hebrew word for “Messiah” is “Moshiach —.” The literal and proper translation of this word is “anointed,” which refers to a ritual of anointing and consecrating someone or some-thing with oil. (I Samuel 10:1-2) It is used throughout the Jewish Bible in reference to a wide variety of individuals and objects; for example, a Jewish king (I Kings 1:39), Jewish priests (Leviticus 4:3), prophets (Isaiah 61:1), the Jewish Temple and its utensils (Exodus 40:9-11), unleavened bread (Numbers 6:15), and a non-Jewish king (Cyrus king of Persia, Isaiah 45:1).
THE CRITERIA TO BE FULFILLED BY THE JEWISH MESSIAH
In an accurate translation of the Jewish Scriptures, the word “Moshiach” is never translated as “Messiah,” but as “anointed.”1Nevertheless, Judaism has always maintained a fundamental belief in a Messianic figure. Since the concept of a Messiah is one that was given by G-d to the Jews, Jewish tradition is best qualified to describe and recognize the expected Messiah. This tradition has its foundation in numerous biblical references, many of which are cited below. Judaism understands the Messiah to be a human being (with no connotation of deity or divinity) who will bring about certain changes in the world and who must fulfill certain specific criteria before being acknowledged as the Messiah.
These specific criteria are as follows:
1) He must be Jewish. (Deuteronomy 17:15, Numbers 24:17)
2) He must be a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10) and a direct male descendent of both King David (I Chronicles 17:11, Psalm 89:29-38, Jeremiah 33:17, II Samuel 7:12-16) and King Solomon. (I Chronicles 22:10, II Chronicles 7:18)
3) He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel. (Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 11:12)
4) He must rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. (Micah 4:1)
5) He must bring world peace. (Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6, Micah 4:3)
6) He must influence the entire world to acknowledge and serve one G-d. (Isaiah 11:9, Isaiah 40:5, Zephaniah 3:9)
All of these criteria for the Messiah are best stated in the book of Ezekiel chapter 37:24-28:
“And My servant David will be a king over them, and they will all have one shepherd, and they will walk in My ordinances, and keep My statutes, and observe them, and they shall live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant...and I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their G-d and they will be My people. And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”
If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, he cannot be the Messiah.
WHY JESUS COULD NOT HAVE BEEN THE JEWISH MESSIAH
A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that, although Jesus was Jewish, he did not fulfill any of the other criteria. An examination of the contradictory accounts of Jesus’ genealogy demonstrates a number of difficulties with the fulfillment of the second criterion. Specifically, the New Testament claims that Jesus did not have a physical father. The Jewish Scriptures, however, clearly state that a person’s genealogy and tribal membership is transmitted exclusively through one’s physical father (Numbers 1:18, Jeremiah 33:17). Therefore, Jesus cannot possibly be a descendent of the tribe of Judah nor of King David and King Solomon.
There are even further problems with any attempts to use the Jewish Scriptures to prove Jesus’ genealogy through Joseph, the husband of Mary (Jesus’ mother). For the New Testament claims that Joseph was a descendent of King Jeconiah, who in the Hebrew Bible was cursed to never have a descendent “sitting on the throne of David and ruling any more in Judah” (Jeremiah 22:30). Joseph’s genealogy, even if it were transmittable to Jesus, would only serve to further disqualify Jesus as the Messiah.
Finally, there is the problem of the contradictory accounts of Jesus’ genealogy in Matthew, Chapter 1 and Luke, Chapter 3. The common Christian explanation of this contradiction claims that Luke’s genealogy is that of Jesus’ mother, Mary. However, this is unfounded, even according to the Greek original. In addition, it has already been established that genealogy is transferred solely through the father, making this attempted explanation completely irrelevant. Even if one could trace one’s genealogy through one’s mother, there would be the additional problem that Luke 3:31 lists Mary as a descendent of David through Nathan, Solomon’s brother, and not through Solomon himself as required according to the prophesy in I Chronicles 22:10 of the Jewish Bible.
The third, fourth, fifth and sixth criteria have obviously not been fulfilled — neither during Jesus’ time nor since. Any Christian claims that these final criteria will be fulfilled in a “Second Coming” are irrelevant because the concept of the Messiah coming twice has no scriptural basis.
To summarize, we cannot know that someone is the Messiah until he fulfills all of the above criteria.
The Christian understanding of the Messiah and Jesus differs greatly from the Jewish biblical view. These differences developed as a result of the Church’s influence during the time of the Emperor Constantine and the Council of Nicaea that issued the Nicene Creed in 325 CE.
The Messiah was never meant to be an object of worship. His primary mission and accomplishment is to bring world peace and to fill the world with the knowledge and awareness of one G-d.
1 Some form of the Hebrew word “Moshiach — “ is used over 150 times in the Jewish Bible. Christians consistently translate this word as anointed, except in the ninth chapter of Daniel. In this chapter missionaries deviate from this and other correct translations in an attempt to prove that the Messiah came before the destruction of the Second Temple. Rather than speaking about “the Messiah,” when read in context and with a correct translation this chapter clearly speaks about two different “anointed” subjects hundreds of years apart: a) The first is the anointed King Cyrus (Isaiah 45:1) who granted permission to the Jews to return and build the Second Temple 52 years “7 weeks of years” after the destruction of the First Temple; b) The second is the anointed priesthood (Leviticus 4:3) that was terminated 434 years “62 weeks of years” later.
Saul was an anointed one. So was David. Same for the Temple in Jerusalem. King Cyrus was considered an anointed one as well.
So simply being an ‘anointed one’ does not make one a messiah.
G-d cannot be mortal, for their are references in the bible that clearly state this.
Therefore the Christian claim that Jesus is G-d, who died for the world’s sins... are in violation of the bible itself.
For if Jesus died, he was mortal. G-d is not mortal.
If Jesus was G-d, he’d physically have to be immortal - thus not human.
It can’t happen.
See Numbers 23:19 and Malachi 3:6 for examples of why the “Jesus = G-d” argument cannot be.
Cherry picking by those looking for justification of Jesus... after both the psalms were written and the death of David.
We all can look at the bible today and search for passages predicting things like WWII and 9-11. It doesn’t mean those people to which the bible records were actually knew about them.
(well, except G-d, that is)
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