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To: Claud; wmfights; 1000 silverlings; Gamecock; Alex Murphy; Frumanchu; ears_to_hear; AZhardliner; ...
When I think "seal" I think an imprint, a mark, a ratification of something. That's more than just symbolic the way I see it. Attach it to the rest of the passage and it becomes even more striking: "a seal of the covenant of grace, of his ingrafting into Christ, of regeneration, of remission of sins..." That sounds quite sacramental to me.

Probably because it is a sacrament.

No one is regenerated at baptism. That's an RCC error. Instead, Baptism is a sign and seal that this child of God, at a time of God's choosing, will be regenerated by the Holy Spirit within him, will repent of his sins and believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, as God promised.

WCF: The efficacy of Baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is administered; yet, notwithstanding, by the right use of this ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited, and conferred, by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as that grace belongs unto, according to the counsel of God's own will, in His appointed time.

Context, Claud. "The grace promised is not only offered but really exhibited and conferred by the Holy Ghost...according to the counsel of God's own will in His appointed time."

This grace is not conferred at Baptism, but is promised at Baptism. The awareness of God's grace is made known to the child of God at a time of God's choosing, "in His appointed time."

"Infants are renewed by the Spirit of God, according to the capacity of their age, till that power which was concealed within them grows by degrees, and becomes fully manifest at the proper time." -- John Calvin - Syn. Gosp. II:390

It's no small distinction between the RCC and the Reformed.

Baptism is a recognition of a birthright issued by God from before the foundation of the world, a declaration that God is the true father of that child.

That birthright is not given at the moment of baptism; it is confirmed and made public at baptism, having been given by God from before the foundation of the world -- a sign and seal of His grace.

Hence we have the RCC saying "hurry up and baptise your child or else something bad might happen..." while the reformed have no such fear.

"The offspring of believers is born holy, because their children, while yet in the womb...are included in the covenant of eternal life. Nor are they admitted into the church by baptism on any other ground than that they belonged to the body of Christ before they were born...

The salvation of infants is included in he promise in which God decares to believers that he will be a God to them and to their seed...Their salvation, therefore, has not its commencement in baptism, but being already founded on the word, is sealed by baptism" -- John Calvin (Antidote to Council of Trent.)


422 posted on 02/29/2008 3:21:52 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg (("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose))
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
"The offspring of believers is born holy, because their children, while yet in the womb...are included in the covenant of eternal life.

Well I have to say Dr. Eckleburg, that this is the first time we would disagree. There are many an offspring of believers that were anything but holy and it does go against election. Let alone original sin. I must be misunderstanding something. I do believe that God is a third party in the conception of a child and that good souls can born good souls, yet it is not always the case, and vice versa

430 posted on 02/29/2008 4:12:53 PM PST by 1000 silverlings (Everything that deceives also enchants: Plato)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

Very fine explanation of this important distinction. Lack of understanding this leads many astray from the pure milk of the grace of God.


447 posted on 02/29/2008 6:42:07 PM PST by Manfred the Wonder Dawg (Test ALL things, hold to that which is True.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

***No one is regenerated at baptism. That’s an RCC error. Instead, Baptism is a sign and seal that this child of God, at a time of God’s choosing, will be regenerated by the Holy Spirit within him, will repent of his sins and believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, as God promised. ***

The seal is a mark, not a plastic baggie. And all those who are baptized and believe shall be saved.

No just the frogmarched.


460 posted on 02/29/2008 7:40:49 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

***”The offspring of believers is born holy, because their children, while yet in the womb...are included in the covenant of eternal life. Nor are they admitted into the church by baptism on any other ground than that they belonged to the body of Christ before they were born...***

You are as off the mark as you have ever been. Where in the Bible does it say this?

You’ve made some wild claims; this takes the cake.


461 posted on 02/29/2008 7:44:02 PM PST by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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