Respectfully -
The Holy Spirit knows who are His. With that being said I cannot show you scripture (and I am a Lutheran by the way) that states that the Holy Spirit indwells in a nonbeliever however what the totality of scripture tells us is that baptism marks us as seperated as God’s own dear child.
There is absolutely NOTHING that prohibits this for infants in scripture. There is not a requirement to believe before we are baptized. That is a false premise. If it were true then it’s basic starting point is that we are then telling God that He can now allow us into His family because we’re ready. That most definitely is not how it works. We are brought to God thru the Spirit not by our choice as if He needed us to do that for Him.
Question: By your reasoning a child who dies before say 2-4 years old has no chance of salvation as they are incapable of believing in Christ’s sacrifice, is that correct? Do you contend the Holy Spirit does not indwell in these children? What about severly handicapped individuals, they often cannot truly understand and hence believe, are they not able to be baptized? Please elaborate how salvation works for children/the severly disabled as it’s quite clear there would have to be a seperate set of requirements.
Mmmm....that's a superb question. Thoughts, wmfights?
The bottom line for me . . . is that . . .
Almighty God’s Nature is such that
HIS MERCY TRIUMPHS OVER HIS JUDGMENT . . .
He is looking for Biblical reason to save folks . . .
vs
Biblical excuse to damn them.
There is no accountability, responsibility without freedom to choose. This is even a principle in our law and courts.
I think it’s foolishness to construe God as being more harsh and punative than humans.
We really don't disagree about this.
I cannot show you scripture (and I am a Lutheran by the way) that states that the Holy Spirit indwells in a nonbeliever
I can't find any either.
If we are not given any examples of this, why would we believe infant baptism will cause the Holy Spirit to indwell a baby?
There is absolutely NOTHING that prohibits this for infants in scripture.
If it is not resulting in the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but rather is a sign of a child being brought into a Christian community I completely agree. Where I am drawing the distinction is if this ordinance is believed to trigger the indwelling Holy Spirit it should not be administered to infants who have not yet believed.
All the examples we have in Scripture are of adult believers who have first come to Faith and are then baptized. It was stated earlier on this thread that you must be baptized to be saved. I am disagreeing with this premise and the idea that the indwelling Holy Spirit occurs with Baptism.
By your reasoning a child who dies before say 2-4 years old has no chance of salvation as they are incapable of believing in Christ’s sacrifice, is that correct? Do you contend the Holy Spirit does not indwell in these children?
I would refer you back to your first sentence in this post.
"The Holy Spirit knows who are his."
I believe that the LORD treats those that have not matured to the age where they can believe as he did David's son differently. David said he would see him again.
[PM to WM:] Question: By your reasoning a child who dies before say 2-4 years old has no chance of salvation as they are incapable of believing in Christ’s sacrifice, is that correct?
I agree with WM that Holy Spirit knows who are His. All who were predestined were......... predestined, regardless of age at the time of calling home. Based on the totality of scripture, it would seem to grate against the God who is revealed to us if it was true that all abortion victims were automatically damned to hell because they were robbed of the opportunity to become of age and believe.
Do you contend the Holy Spirit does not indwell in these children? What about severely handicapped individuals, they often cannot truly understand and hence believe, are they not able to be baptized? Please elaborate how salvation works for children/the severely disabled as it’s quite clear there would have to be a separate set of requirements.
Here we should note that the Reformed position is that water baptism has nothing to do with salvation. The Holy Spirit will inhabit those who are predestined, not all those who have been water baptized. Surely many who have been water baptized do not wind up in Heaven. We say that under normal circumstances one is saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9). However, as you note in supposition, it is most likely true that when faith cannot happen due to impossibility, then it works differently. We must ultimately go back to the Book of Life. Does it make sense that God would only write down the names of those who lived long enough to have faith? I don't think the totality of scripture reveals that to us.