Posted on 02/22/2008 5:31:45 PM PST by DouglasKC
I should have mentioned that I had, indeed, visited that link. My point is that even there no argument, as such, is presented! Never does he present an argument attempting to demonstrate, using any of the common rules of argumentation, that there is any real link, other than in his imagination, between the UK and US on the one hand and tribes of Jacob on the other. I'm not going to send in for his booklet if I have no reason to suppose that its argumentation is any more persuasive.
I am not opposed to learning that there exists such a convincing argument--indeed, I am predisposed to believing that myself. I am opposed to faulty logic and assumption masquerading as one.
imho . . .
they MAY be all the above together or some all some parts of such a scenario . . .
After all
ALL CREATION WAITS GROANINGLY EXPECTANT, EAGERLY SEEKING THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD.
Whatever that means . . .
but why would other worlds . . . for example . . . hypothetical example . . . why would other worlds groan except under the weight of sin . . . polluting all creation . . . awaiting those ruling and reigning with Christ to set things to right . . . finally.????
You can also get it in PDF Format right beneath the "Request by Mail" link.
It is good to see you fighting the same battles Diego.
Why do folks get vexed? It is as if learning something new and wonderful should be shouted down. One of the troubles is when they shout it isn't with scripture because they can't argue the points...instead they attack what they believe is the source. The trouble being the source is scripture.
Things don't change....do they?
.........Ping-Pong
The link was to a 60 something page booklet, but it's freely available on line as either in PDF or HTML.
It will require quite a bit of study of both scripture and history. But it's conclusions are fascinating and illuminating. I believe it, but your mileage may vary. :-)
Hi Ping. [Ecclesiastes 1:9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.
I once posted a simple math example that showed how many Israelite ancestors there must be. Let's say that out of Jacobs 12 sons, each only managed to have 2 children that reproduced. We know that at least in the 2nd generation that it was more than that, but we'll stick with 2 for it's simplicity. That would mean that the next generation would have seen 24 offspring.
Let's then assume that this generation only had an average of 2 offspring that reproduced. The next generation would have 48 members.
Within 30 generations, using the same figures, there would be over 6 billion people...6,442,450,944 to be exact.
Assuming a generation is 70 years, then this number could be achieved in just 2100 years.
Now I'm sure there are factors I'm overlooking, so let's say my 6 billion figure is off by 2/3's...that still leaves over 2 billion people that may have descended from Israel.
Maybe I'm missing something, but if one believes that Jacob actually had 12 children than it's almost inevitable that the world is going to be full of people physically related to him.
To what end will this achieve? IF Christ were to return tomorrow for 1,000 years, would non-Christians be saved?
As far as Christians, I believe our Lord chastised Thomas because he had to physically see and touch our Lord Jesus. Blessed are those who do not see-yet believe.
Well yes, but there's the millennium first. Christians are to reign with Christ on earth: Rev...
I wouldn't make too much out of Revelation. I have yet to find anyone who can give me a coherent view on the book. There are all sorts of interpretations. You could read Rev 5:10 (Rev 5:10 "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth.") as meaning believers. After all I already posted that we have been transferred into His kingdom.
As far as reigning with Him for a thousand years, Rev 1:6 already states that He "...made us kings and priests to God and His Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.". We are already His priests. He is the High Priest.
I can't argue, nor am I'm trying to argue, Revelation. I just don't think the book is as clear cut as many purport it to be.
I would agree that it's not our permanent home. But the millennium seems to be a transition period.
With all due respect, why? What precisely are we transitioning to? This sounds much like the Catholic doctrine of purgatory-God's holding tank while we become better people.
Our Lord Jesus turned to the thief on the cross and said, "Today you will be with me in Paradise." I believe that happens to every believer, we are transported from this life to the next. When Christ returns, that will be that. The end. Unbelievers will go to judgment while believers have been judged already through Christ.
Yes, instead of that extensive library of scholarly interpretation. It's as if people have invested (covenanted) so much time, effort, and money into studying the works of men that these works have become indistinguishable from (or have simply replaced) the word of Hashem. Notice that the truth can become falsehood by just a little twist or omission of a detail. The whole truth is the truth whereas a half truth is a lie.
Don't have a link handy but their is a valuable Judaic teaching that compares/contrasts the Hebrew word for lie (sheqer) and the word for truth (emet). "Sheqer" (shin quf resh) is spelled with three consecutive letters toward one end (extremity) of the alef-beit, but out of the normal order of quf, resh, shin. The word emet (alef, mem, tav), in contrast, spans the whole alef-beit, in proper order: first (alef), middle (mem), and last (tav).
Now there's an observation that doesn't contradict the word of Hashem; it simply makes note of the obvious.
Hi Harley...I suspect we have different doctrinal beliefs on these issues. Of course only Christians will be saved, but I believe the millennium is a time period when the whole earth can finally see the truth of Christ without the interference of Satan, who is bound at the beginning of the millennium. Of course details are scant in the bible about what exactly occurs, but there are indications. For example, I would consider this a millennial prophecy:
Isa 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.
Isa 41:15 Behold, I will make thee a new sharp threshing instrument having teeth: thou shalt thresh the mountains, and beat them small, and shalt make the hills as chaff.
Isa 41:16 Thou shalt fan them, and the wind shall carry them away, and the whirlwind shall scatter them: and thou shalt rejoice in the LORD, and shalt glory in the Holy One of Israel.
Isa 41:17 When the poor and needy seek water, and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I the LORD will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them.
Isa 41:18 I will open rivers in high places, and fountains in the midst of the valleys: I will make the wilderness a pool of water, and the dry land springs of water.
Isa 41:19 I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the shittah tree, and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree together:
Isa 41:20 That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.
I can't argue, nor am I'm trying to argue, Revelation. I just don't think the book is as clear cut as many purport it to be.
I would agree that it CAN be difficult to understand. But it's not meant to be that way.
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Revelation was written so that God's servants would be informed about future events. We can know it if we approach our study with prayer and God's Holy spirit.
With all due respect, why? What precisely are we transitioning to? This sounds much like the Catholic doctrine of purgatory-God's holding tank while we become better people.
I believe it's a transition or a learning period for God's people. I believe that it will be used by God to teach us how to create, how to build, how to use the faith and power God will give his children...
Isa 41:15 Behold, I will make thee a new sharp threshing instrument having teeth: thou shalt thresh the mountains, and beat them small, and shalt make the hills as chaff.
Our Lord Jesus turned to the thief on the cross and said, "Today you will be with me in Paradise." I believe that happens to every believer, we are transported from this life to the next. When Christ returns, that will be that. The end. Unbelievers will go to judgment while believers have been judged already through Christ.
I think there are many more scriptures that indicate a specific time period before Christians are resurrected to glory than not. If the totality of scripture indicates otherwise than one would need to re-examine the thief on the cross to see where it might be being misinterpreted. I will grant though that to a Christian, the time perceived between death and seeing Christ will be instantaneous. When I die I know that the next blink of my eye will behold Christ.
If you mean imputed righteousness, yes, if you mean imparted, no.
It is because we do not seriously examine our condition that we think ourselves rich and increased with goods. A man may fancy that he is prospering in business and yet he may be going back in the world. If he does not face his books or take stock, he may be living in a fool’s paradise spending largely when on the verge of bankruptcy.
Many think well of themselves because they never think seriously. They do not look below the surface, and hence, they are deceived by appearances. The most troublesome business to many men is thought, and the last thing they will do is weigh their actions, test their motives, or ponder their ways to see whether things be right with them. Self-righteousness being supported by ignorance, by pride, by unbelief, and by the natural superficiality of the human mind is strongly entrenched and cannot be readily driven out of men. Yet self-righteousness is evidently evil for it makes light of sin.
It talks of merit in the one who has already transgressed and boasts of excellence in reference to a fallen and depraved creature. It prattles of little faults, small failures and slight omissions and so makes sin to be a venial error which may be readily overlooked. Not so faith in God, for though it recognizes pardon, yet that pardon is seen to come in a way which proves sin to be exceedingly sinful."
- Charles Haddon Spurgeon
I agree with you on this. Deception and delusion to cast doubt on the truth of scripture.
I have often thought of the Millennium as a period which will bring the Earth back to its original state spoken in [Genesis 1:31] And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
We are told that Satan will be bound for a thousand years [Revelation 20:2]....that we will reign with Our Saviour for those thousand years [20:6]. Think of the ramifications.
Ruling a world with no Satanic influence: There will be much to do. Not everyone living during the Millennium will be a immortal being reigning with Christ. There will still be flesh and blood humanity to deal with and they will still have a sinful nature.
At last humanity will learn to live God's way and to enjoy the benefits of that life. I would imagine that after a few years under God's direct rule pollution will be a thing of the past. Man will be learning God's ways when it comes to food production and hunger will become a thing of the past. Mankind will also reap the benefits of God's dietary laws and so disease will go the way of pollution and hunger.
Children will still be born to flesh and blood humanity but now....with no Satanic influence, families will be close and God centered. Death will still be a part of mortal life but after a few years folks will find by observing God's Laws (physical and spiritual) they will be living much longer lives. The folks in Genesis were the recipients of this same benefit....but Satanic influence caused them to turn from God's instructions and their lifespans suffered accordingly.
There will be a cadre of immortal beings [I Corinthians 15:51-52][I Thessalonians 4:16-17] helping to govern this world and folks will finally be shown the way to happiness. They will live by God's Laws, celebrates God's Festivals [Zechariah 14:16-19] and Sabbaths and learn the ways of The Lord. They will learn the way of giving.....they will forget the way of getting.
What about the folks who were not resurrected to immortality....? [Revelation 20:4-6] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished). This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
The dead who take part in this resurrection (the second) will include folks who have never heard the Word of God....or the only Name where they can receive eternal life. Are we to believe these folks will not be given a chance to learn of God and His Son? Do we think they will be casually tossed into the Lake of Fire because some missionary in China had a flat tire and could not make it to their bedside prior to their death? This will not be a second chance for these people.....they never had a first one to begin with!
Yes...there will be much to do before Satan is released again. Since mankind will still have a sinful nature not everyone will select the way of life. Some will choose to submit to their human natures and will suffer the second death after their resurrections [20:14]. All will be resurrected....some to life....some to death.[Daniel 12:1-2]
Then we will step into eternity: [Revelation 21:1-4]
Excellent post and summary Diego...thank you.
This is very well done. But also for a joke. We also have the Anti-Christ and False Prophet.
Obama and Farrakhan
Sounds reasonably Biblical, I think.
Thanks.
read
Coming from you.....that means a lot! Thank you....yourself!
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