Posted on 02/22/2008 7:11:29 AM PST by Alex Murphy
SALT LAKE CITY ---- Last fall, the head of the Mormon church's Relief Society delivered a treatise on motherhood that equated nurturing with keeping a tidy house. Women in poor countries who dress their daughters in clean, ironed dresses, the speaker said, honor a sacred covenant.
Julie B. Beck's exhortation at the church's General Conference that Mormon women strive to be "the best homemakers in the world" did not go unanswered. More than 250 women signed an online rebuttal.
The exchange illustrates that while the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is years removed from open hostilities over feminism, passions still run high over the role of women in a patriarchal church.
No one can profess to know how women's issues will be handled by the successor to church president Gordon B. Hinckley, who died Sunday at 97.
But few expect major changes along the lines of opening the Mormon priesthood -- an office granted only to Mormon men ---- to women.
But women could still emerge as stronger voices of the church.
"My feeling is that things are not going to change much, that the church is going to keep its very conservative positions on women's roles," said Margaret Toscano, a self-described feminist activist who was excommunicated in 2000 and teaches language and literature at the University of Utah.
Although the church did not reveal why Toscano was excommunicated, she argued a historical precedence for women in the priesthood. She also promoted the concept of a "Mother God," a deity who was described in an early Mormon poem as a consort to God in heaven.
Today, Mormon feminism thrives in a different form. A blog called Feminist Mormon Housewives, for instance, calls itself as "a safe place to be feminist and faithful" and offers the protection of anonymity.
Toscano said Beck's 1950s vision of motherhood astonished many Mormon women who believed the church, while not encouraging career women, had at least acknowledged women could work and still be good mothers.
Beck was not available for interviews, church officials said. Other LDS women came to Beck's defense, and pointed out that her talk also made clear that wives are "in equal partnership" with their husbands.
The agency which Beck heads, the Relief Society, is one of three Mormon offices open to women. Billed as one of the world's largest women's groups, with 5.5 million members, it provides spiritual instruction to women and aids needy families, among other things.
Mormon women are increasingly visible in worship, often called upon to give the major talk during sacramental meetings, said Jan Shipps, an emeritus professor at Indiana University-Purdue University Indianapolis.
"Women can't be bishops, they can't be pastors, but they're much more visible and much more a part of leadership of local congregations than they were 30 years ago," said Shipps, a non-Mormon scholar of the faith.
Kim Farah, an LDS spokeswoman, said in a statement that women play an integral role in the church, from preaching to teaching to "sitting in council" with male priesthood leaders about running congregations.
"However, we believe that great happiness comes from our work in the home and that, regardless of individual circumstances, women have perhaps the greatest influence for good when it comes to the family," Farah said. "Personally, this gives me great peace, joy and self-esteem."
In a 1996 interview with CBS' "60 Minutes," Hinckley said, "In this church the man neither walks ahead of his wife nor behind his wife but at her side. They are coequals in this life in a great enterprise."
Hinckley's likely successor, Thomas S. Monson, said in a speech last year that women should seek secular education ---- not to pursue careers, but because their husbands might fall ill or die.
"You may find yourself in the role of financial provider," Monson said. "Some of you already occupy that role. I urge you to pursue your education ---- if you are not already doing so or have not done so -- that you might be prepared to provide if circumstances necessitate such."
Claudia Bushman, a Mormon author who has studied women's issues, said there has been little progress giving Mormon women new opportunities in the church, although she envisions greater roles in representing the church in civic settings and working with other faith traditions.
"The church does repress women, but it really doesn't repress women as much as bring men forward," Bushman said. "From the time Mormons are children, boys get a lot more encouragement than girls because they are needed for leadership roles. Men need more encouragement, I think."
That's not my take on it at all. If you are a lawyer you likely know that two people who claim to have witnessed a person or event will each likely describe the person/event seen completely different. That doesn't change who the person is or the actual event that took place. It also does not mean that either person, though incorrect, lied. It shows how different people see and understand things differently. For argument's sake, let's suppose neither witness is lying about seeing the person/event in question. Their disagreement, then, is not about whether or not they saw a "person" or the "event," but the details concerning the person/event. They agree on what's "important," i.e., a man between the ages of 18 to 42, at the scene, in the vicinity of a particular block in a neighborhood. And that is the first critical step for the police to know whether or not the witness is actually telling the truth concerning: the sex, the approximate age, time, and place. That information is all they need to help lead them into refining their search as it LIKELY eliminates: women, children, and those who live/work outside that area.
For the sake of argument, say the above example concerned someone who was not "emotionally" or otherwise involved as a witness and were more likely, therefore, to think more logically and without passion. Concerning religious beliefs, however, this is usually not the case, as people become personally invested, emotionally, intellectually, spiritually, and otherwise.
On top of that, there then comes the problem of human will, imperfection, and sin. These things will prevent any kind of perfect harmony, agreement, and understanding. Therefore, it is not God's fault as to how people worship Him, rather, if there is fault, it is man's. Some people are more willing to allow the Holy Spirit to teach them, and so they learn more/better than others. Some people refuse to be led by the Holy Spirit and, consequently, they learn/understand less.
And God accepts and meets people right where they are. Eventually, some can receive deeper understanding (the meat) and some die never growing and drinking only milk, though the meat was offered at various times....they couldn't handle it.
So it's not that the Word is ambiguous at all. It's people's abilities to understand what is written and that understanding changes over time if the Christian is reading and growing in the Word as THEY allow the Holy Spirit to speak to their heart and mind. The foundation is not what changes, it is the depth of their understanding that changes and deepens.
So as far as belief in “established scripture,” the question has to be, “Whose interpretation of established scripture.” It’s well established that the “don’t add anything” language in Revelations, just like the same language in Deuteronomy, refers to that book, itself. Many of the books of the New Testament were written after Revelations.
That's according to you and your religion. That is not according, again, to Orthodoxed Christianity. I presume that that belief system is necessary because it allows for the very thing that Joseph Smith did. That is, in itself, logical error.
Sometimes I think we Mormons are the only ones who really do believe in the Bible.
You do; your own version of it, as per Joseph Smith's changes. But you don't believe in nor rely upon it solely, as Christians are told to do by God Himself. And I really do believe in the Bible, the whole Bible. I have read it many times, and studied it, and taught it, and been in more Bible studies than I can recall. I know the Word and believe it. As each person lives, there will always be continued growth in understanding of the Word, but my foundation is solid.
We are the only ones who believe that God still sends us prophets, just like in the Bible. I think it’s a whole lot easier to say you believe in prophets from a distance of thousands of years, than to say you still believe that God deals with us in the same way that he did in the Bible.
That's not true and I wouldn't know where you got that information from. The Bible states there WILL BE prophets who come, but there will be false and true prophets; and because there WILL BE false prophets, Jesus warned us what they will be like (so that we will also know what TRUE prophets are like).
I believe it because I have asked for spiritual confirmation, and I have received it at various times, usually depending on my obedience to the commandments.
I have no doubt concerning your sincerity of belief, nor do I have any doubt concerning your receiving "spiritual confirmation." But because what you believe contradicts what the Scriptures say, and because it goes against what is in the Scriptures, and because it was founded by someone whose credentials have proven he is a false prophet, your "confirmations" are not coming from God the Creator, but from someone/somewhere else.
I also believe it because I know as a person who makes her living writing, that the Book of Mormon could not have been written by Joseph Smith. He was a barely literate farmboy who dicated the book in about two months, in one draft. But it is rich and complex, internally consistent, and full of details that have since been confirmed, but which he could not possibly have known about. In the last 20 years, the anti-Mormon seminar people have had to continually revise their talking points as evidence of the Book of Mormon has been discovered.
The muslims claim the same thing about their prophet, Mohammed. That doesn't make him God's prophet, as he is not. The scriptures tell each person the signs of false prophets and false teachers. As Mohammed was one, as James Jones was one, and as many others also are, so is Joseph Smith.
also believe it because its fruits in my life have been unambiguously good.
As concerns, you, or Mormons who I've known, I do not presume to judge you, or them, personally as to being "good" or "bad," just deceived (and that saddens me). I would say, on the whole, of the Mormons I have personally known, they are "good" people. In fact, I encouraged my oldest daughter to establish and maintain friendship with at least one Mormon girl while she was in Jr. High/HS. To this day, my daughter and one of her closest friends is a Mormon and they maintain their friendship (now dating to at least 7 years' duration).
There are many people who are "good," but this does not give them or necessarily evidence, salvation. There are varying degrees of "good," but the standard by which we are to measure ourselves is Christ. By that standard, I fall short of being called anything but a sinner saved by grace, and all my "goodness" is still as filthy rags, but for His Work in me. The Apostle Paul even said concerning himself as a believer, "that which he would not do, he does...it is the sin within him" that causes him to sin.
But, I know I won’t convince you of anything. You just asked, so I told you.
No, you've convinced me of nothing, but I appreciate very much your candid response.
Sometime when I’m at home where I have my great-grandfather’s autobiography handy, I’ll quote you some of it. He was a part-time Methodist preacher in South Africa who knew the Bible backwards and forward. He recognized Mormonism and Mormon doctrine as a fulfillment of the Bible. It helped him understand it better. He recognized it as the “restoration” of the church established by Christ, which he and his fellow Methodists believed was required. I think this particular doctrine of Protestantism has since been suppressed.
I'd be interested in hearing what your grandfather wrote. I shall also be praying that you see the Truth.
Many of us still believe in prophets. There are many in the Christian community and I listen to what they say. I’ve had words spoken over me that have been such an encouragement and have helped me hang on to my long rope through trials and tribulations. M
Another non sequitur. If you haven’t had your name removed from the membership rolls because you don’t want to be interviewed, just say so. If you have asked to have it removed, but the church hasn’t done it, just say so.
I suspect that all you would have to do is present them with a compilation of all your writings here on FR and they would process your request so fast it would make your head spin. There is a difference beween someone who just doesn’t want to be bothered, and someone who has become a full-fledged enemy of the church.
As it is, your position makes no sense. For example, why were you so anxious to attend President Hinckley’s funeral?
You’re welcome, lady lawyer.
I told you I didn’t expect to convince you. Nor do I consider your responses compelling.
As I said. It is none of your business.
You already know that many of my family members are active participants in the LDS Church. Some family functions require my attendance in order that I show my deferrence to my family. The funeral was one of these occasions. It was requested that I attend with the family, it was important to them, and so I care less what you think.
You have no right whatsoever to interfere with my family life. And yes, my family knows exactly how I feel and what I believe in regards to the LDS faith. We have agreed to put it behind us and maintain family structure.
Again, your response makes no sense. If your family knows how you feel about the church, as you claim, then it would make sense to them that you have your name removed. My goodness, if one of my children was working like you to hurt the church, I would consider them better off if they had their names removed.
While they may know that you have become a nonbeliever, I’ll bet they would be sickened to see the things your write here.
It is not me who changes hearts and minds, but the Holy Spirit.
In His own time.
And still you do not know my official membership status. Is it still driving you crazy? Oh BTW, my family DOES know. But again, it is none of your business.
I’ve had fun, especially with my non sequiturs. ,-)
I think you need your meds adjusted.
I’m sure you do.
On this we agree.
Good! A first. : )
You know, I’ve pursued the question, not because I care about your status, except to the extent you use it here on FR in your attempts to hurt the church. Mostly, I’ve just been trying to see if you had a rationale that made any sense. You don’t. Anybody with as much cognitive dissonance as you’ve got going on has a problem.
And all this time I thought you were a lawyer and not a judge!
Silly me!
Many Christian churches have women deacons, elders, board members, committee heads and pastors. They are equal to men in the important ways and there is no teaching that they have to marry or otherwise depend on the actions of a man in order to enter Heaven.
Women are equal to men in the blessing of the bread and wine and in the serving of it to the membership. Women are called to be the head of the church board, or governing body, are allowed as pastors to perform the sacred marriage ceremonies and baptisms.
Perhaps mormons don't look on this as being "second-class" when women are forbidden these privileges, as in the LDS church..that is their option, however...there are many, many Christians who would disagree.
I have members of my family and extended family who are excommunicated, and who have requested to have their names taken off the rolls of the church. Anyone and everyone is welcome to come to any family function regardless. We’re still a family and love each other.
I am thoroughly enjoying the picture you are painting of the tolerance of SOME mormons who have spent the past few months bawling “BIGOT” and “HATER” for the lurkers. Carry on!
Thank you Girl. Your attitude is truly admirable.
I know a great many LDS whom I love dearly. So many are just awesome, wonderful, loving people.
I feel the same as you. Especially here where all the locals are in the church. My best friend in the community is the Bishop. I know enough to not embarrass them with my point of view; they do likewise and give us our space. On occasion we run into screamers who cannot leave it alone. We dismiss them with graciousness and a kindly smile. Nothing else can be done with such burning in the bosom. Sometimes a cold beer works.
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