Defining Evangelicalism Down

Townhall.com ^ | 2/12/08 | Paul Edwards

[newberger]

Jesus never spoke against abortion or homosexual marriage.

Jesus spoke against Adultery and sexual immorality. And I kind of doubt they were doing millions of abortions back in 30 AD.

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First of all, the Didache, the oldest Christian document outside of the Bible, explicitly condemns abortion. Many believe the Didache may have been written in AD 70.

Secondly, Jesus *did* implicitly preach against homosexual marriage when he defined marriage as a man leaving his parents and becoming on flesh with his wife.

[Cyrano]

What’s really happening here is an attempt by the Left to define evangelicalism down by moving it away from its emphasis on the power of the gospel to change lives. The church’s ability to affect social and cultural change, bringing relief to the poor and suffering, is rooted first and foremost in its commitment to the gospel of Jesus Christ, and what the gospel says about the condition of man in sin which results in the symptoms of poverty and disease.

Good article. I'm seeing this as I trudge slowly through Bell's Velvet Elvis as well. To this point (and I'm just starting chapter -- or "movement" or "whim" or whatever he calls the divisions -- three), every mention or implied reference to the Gospel has been an experiential one: "living the way Jesus taught" kind of stuff. And that, at least to me, echoes a more social call. There certainly hasn't been much about sin and the need of a Savior.

[Terriergal]

Um... As I recall Deitrich BonHoeffer was Lutheran. You might consider more carefully when slinging terms like that about.

[Terriergal]

BTW Lutherans don’t hate Jews, and Paul himself wrote pretty harshly about them because of their legalism. They are as unsaved, according to the new testament, as any other unbeliever in Messiah.

[farmer18th]

True, but you’re arguing from the exception. The vast majority of Lutheran “leaders,” went right along with the S.S.

[Terriergal]

So what? That just means more likely that they weren’t real Christians in the first place. What does Lutheranism have to do with it? Hitler twisted Scripture all the time to convince ‘church going’ people that he was doing the “lord’s work” - doesn’t mean that Lutherans or catholics or anyone else — hate jews.

[farmer18th]

“Jew killing” was a symptom of teaching like John McCarthur’s mis-interpretation of Romans 13. You are fixating on the Jew-killing symptom but not the blind-obedience disease. When Christian pastors fail to see that Romans 13 is more of a warning for leaders who are not a “terror to evil,” they establish the framework for the kind of moral cowardice demonstrated by German Lutherans of the late 1930s.

[farmer18th]

What’s with the “moderator” CC?

[farmer18th]

By the way, I never said that Lutherans hate Jews—only that they were willing to say nothing as they were being slaughtered...

[muawiyah]

? Send American boys to die?

Nobody sends our guys out to die ~ your statement is an insult to everybody in the military, to the entire chain of command, to the President, to the people of the United States.

War, if anything, has as its purpose the bringing of peace.

[farmer18th]

But you don’t bring “peace,” Skippy, by establishing an Iraqi Constitution that establishes “Islam” as the source of all legislation. Islam is the problem, not the solution.

[muawiyah]

The threat of coercion or death serves to make people behave contrary to their own moral code. Statistically speaking the odds are good you'd do no differently than the average German under the same conditions.

There are always a few Schindlers around, but not nearly enough.

It's like this, an airplane failed to take off properly. Instead it faltered, hit a bridge, bounced upside down and came down in the river. A few passengers in the tail managed to survive ~ one man still strapped to his seat was unable to get free.

While in the water thousands of others gathered on the riverbank and watched from a distance.

The fellow in the water helped his fellow passengers get out of the wreckage and onto the ice where they were safer (if not actually safe).

One man jumped into the water, and made his way through the ice to the plane. Then another man jumped in. Others on shore threw out ropes and tires.

Thousands of others continued to watch.

[muawiyah]

Most Iraqis (the Shi'a are the majority) pretty much IGNORE Islam anyway.

At least that's the charge the Sunni make, and there's a lot of validity to it.

In some parts of the world, and Iraq is in such a "part", people find it inconceivable that there should not be a state church, or that religion should be anything other than the guiding principle of society.

In America we generally believe a state religion is total nonsense and probably dangerous to your health. We also believe in free speech. We are in a tiny minority in this world.

[farmer18th]

Most Iraqis (the Shi'a are the majority) pretty much IGNORE Islam anyway.

Non-stop jihad wouldn't seem to be proof of that, nor would the honor stonings that are reported to be on the increase in Iraq.

The point is very simple: Islam is the problem, and has been the problem world-wide for 1400 years. If that prospect is too awful to face, say so, but don't pretend it doesn't exist. The animating, thundering voice behind virtually all of the word's terrorism is Mohammed screaming for dhimittude or conversion at the point of the sword. Failing to acknowledge that because petro-dollars buy so much influence is not being honest with our fighting men.

[farmer18th]

Your describing human nature very well. On that we agree. I’m not sure you realize, however, the mitigating factor represented by good preaching. Good pastors put their flocks on a courageous footing; bad pastors put them to sleep.

[Alex Murphy]

We are not called to transform culture. We are called to preach the gospel.

And what do you think happens, when people start obeying God after receiving the Gospel, Terriergal?

[muawiyah]

The "honor stonings" are all taking place in Kurdistan ~ our oldest ally in the region, and are being done by Sunni, not Shia.

Iraq also has snakehandlers.

Then, there are fellows with top level degrees from world famous universities who live in Baghdad and drink tea in the afternoon.

Since this is the place where civilization was invented, it's not exactly like it's a "foreign country".

[Eva]

I think that Huckabee supporters were the ones responsible for defining evangelicalism as being concerned only with abortion and homosexuality. They proved that they didn’t care about any other issues.

[farmer18th]

Since this is the place where civilization was invented, it's not exactly like it's a "foreign country".

For the sake of this discussion, New England 1773 is the cradle of civilization. Whether you're a tea-drinking Muslim professor or rock-throwing Hezbollah, Islam has to answer for the fact that it can't create any sort of remotely pluralistic society with representative government and a constitutional respect for basic human liberties--even if those liberties disrespect the Q'uran. To pretend otherwise is to do a disservice to our fighting men.

[muawiyah]

More like CHARLOTTETOWN, MECKLENBURG COUNTY MAY 31, 1775.

It's time to share.