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To: Uncle Chip
I never said they all returned.

As far as Simon Magus goes, where is your evidence that Simon Magus was ever even in Rome? It's not in the Bible, that's for sure. The only thing I've found are a few hints from the church fathers, or Catholic pious tradition, which you don't trust in any other context (like, say, when it says that Peter died in Rome).

In fact, there's a Catholic church in Rome that claims to be built on the spot where Simon Magus died. (In fact, they claim to have the stone where Peter and Paul knelt to pray imprecations against Simon; hardly a complementary reference to Mr. Magus.)

The idea that Constantine somehow hoodwinked the Roman Christians into venerating the tomb of Simon Magus is just silly. The tomb was clearly venerated by Christians long before Constantine was hatched.

113 posted on 02/01/2008 11:58:03 AM PST by Campion
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To: Campion
As far as Simon Magus goes, where is your evidence that Simon Magus was ever even in Rome? It's not in the Bible, that's for sure. The only thing I've found are a few hints from the church fathers

A few???? Justin Martur, Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Eusebius, et al -- they all have more to say about Simon Magus's Roman ecclesiastical bishopric than anything about Simon Peter's mythical existence there.

In fact, there's a Catholic church in Rome that claims to be built on the spot where Simon Magus died.

St Peter's Basilica???

(In fact, they claim to have the stone where Peter and Paul knelt to pray imprecations against Simon; hardly a complementary reference to Mr. Magus.)

There are a lot of "claims" that come from Rome. The wise man sifts through them to separate fact from fiction.

The idea that Constantine somehow hoodwinked the Roman Christians into venerating the tomb of Simon Magus is just silly. The tomb was clearly venerated by Christians long before Constantine was hatched.

Venerating a tomb on a hill known to be the burial site of sorcerers and mystics. What does that say about those supposed "Christians" who have such little discernment???

115 posted on 02/01/2008 12:14:33 PM PST by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Campion
The idea that Constantine somehow hoodwinked the Roman Christians into venerating the tomb of Simon Magus is just silly. The tomb was clearly venerated by Christians long before Constantine was hatched.

To wit, an excerpt from the work of Gaius preserved in Eusebius, Book 2, Chap. 25:

It is confirmed likewise by Caius, a member of the Church, who arose under Zephyrinus, bishop of Rome. He, in a published disputation with Proclus, the leader of the Phrygian heresy, speaks as follows concerning the places where the sacred corpses of the aforesaid apostles are laid:

7. "But I can show the trophies of the apostles. For if you will go to the Vatican or to the Ostian way, you will find the trophies of those who laid the foundations of this church."

Zephyrinus reigned from ca. A.D. 199-217.

This structure--the "tropaion" or trophy of Gaius has been found beneath St. Peter's. Seals on the bricks date it to the time of Marcus Aurelius (161-180).

There is a note in the Liber Pontificalis that Pope Anencletus "built and adorned the sepulchral monument of blessed Peter". The author of the LP screwed the names and dates up (Anencletus is just another name for Cletus, not a separate person), but he may well have preserved a kernel of truth about the fact of it, as there was a Pope Anicetus who reigned from about 157-168, thus within the time period that archaeology tells us the monument was built.

117 posted on 02/01/2008 12:19:53 PM PST by Claud
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