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To: Dr. Eckleburg
So, just to apply the logic of your post (especially the WCF) to the discussion at hand:

If I accept what you say, it means that this thread, and all comments on it, are utterly meaningless. Nothing you say, no argument you make, can either increase or diminish the number of those saved. It's already set in stone. You have no free will -- you're a puppet, acting out some play written long ago.

And thus there is no such thing as sin. Because if sin can exist, it implies that people can act counter to what God has already ordained -- unless we take the rather odd position that God can ordain sin.

And yet the Bible assures us throughout that sin is real, and that it is a product of conscious rebellion against God.

And if sin is real, it implies (again) either that we have a choice; or that God causes "sin" to occur through exercise of His own will -- a contradictory proposition.

If God does not ordain sin, then it must be that we have freedom to choose to rebel against Him. And if we have freedom to choose "against", it implies the freedom to choose "for."

And thus we come to a logical justification of what the Bible, including Jesus Himself, makes clear: we can commit sins, and our sins matter; and our decisions regarding following God's commandments also matter -- just as Jesus said they do.

And, finally, we must deal with the concept of free will. You stated, At the moment God created all things He "knew" every path of every atom He created. If not, He's not omnicient.

But again: the Bible assures us that sin is real, and if we accept what you said, it means that God must have willed it to occur: He is somehow able to will something that by definition goes counter to His will. Were the sin not His will, "He's not omniscient."

Well, if God can ordain sin, then He can certainly do something easier than that, and less contradictory to boot: He can allow things to occur that He has not caused to happen. IOW, He can choose to allow us to make free will choices.

The problem here is that you're imposing your own view of eternity on God. It is impossible for us to imagine what a God's-eye view of eternity might look like; and we have absolutely no idea how God differentiates between knowing and causing.

956 posted on 02/01/2008 3:11:06 PM PST by r9etb
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To: r9etb
Yes, sin is real. Yes, men are fallen. Yes, men cannot and will not choose righteously unless and until God first opens their eyes and ears and gives them a new heart with which to know their salvation is by Christ alone.

It's not my idea. This is what the Bible says.

we have absolutely no idea how God differentiates between knowing and causing.

If God "knows" something will happen, will that thing happen?

Yes.

How long has God known this thing that's going to happen?

From before the foundation of the world since God is omnicient and nothing is unknown to Him.

Therefore, God "knows" every sinful act all men will commit. And those who don't believe in Christ will perish. Yet God creates them anyway, doesn't He, knowing full well which man will sit with Him in heaven and which man will spend eternity in hell?

Why? Because that's how God created each of us, some acquitted by Christ alone and some condemned by their own sins whom God has chosen not to cover by the sacrifice of Christ.

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." -- Jeremiah 10:23

There is no difference between God's foreknowledge and God's ordination. It's all as God purposes it. One way or another.

You're really asking why God created any of us in the first place, and the answer to that can only be, "for His good pleasure and His eternal glory."

I see you don't refute any of the Scriptures I gave. There's plenty more. Romans 8 & 9; Colossians; Galatians; John...

"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" -- Romans 9:21

Man does not give himself a new birth. He must be born again by God's gift of the Holy Spirit. And it's God's call. Not ours. Christ will open the door to anyone who knocks, but as Augustine reminds us, it is God who not only opens the door but causes us to even want to knock.

"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive?" -- 1 Corinthians 4:4

Christians should rejoice in the answer to that question. Maybe that's why the world works so hard to keep the truth from them.

961 posted on 02/01/2008 3:44:28 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: r9etb
If I accept what you say, it means that this thread, and all comments on it, are utterly meaningless.

And I meant to address this.

Nothing is "meaningless." Everything was created by and for and through Christ Jesus for the glory of God. How could anything then be "meaningless?"

The Westminster Confession says that the "chief purpose of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever."

That's a wonderfully uplifting point of view. Nothing "meaningless" about it.

We preach the word of God because God tells us that Scripture and its illumination by the Holy Spirit are the means God has ordained to reach His children and to "renew their minds" to the truth.

We don't know who's among the "elect of God" and who isn't. We can be assured of our own salvation because Christ tells us if we believe He is our Saviour, then we have been redeemed by His sacrifice and our faith is real.

We have indications of other people's salvation because Christ told us we will "know them by their fruits;" and only a good tree planted by God will produce good fruit, and any tree not planted by God will be pulled up.

But we have no power to change anyone's mind or heart. That's God's job. We simply preach the word in season and out, "confident God giveth the increase."

Nothing you say, no argument you make, can either increase or diminish the number of those saved. It's already set in stone.

That's not my idea. That's what God says.

"And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?

If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?" -- Luke 12:25-26


"Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass" -- Job 14:4-5


"And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation" -- Acts 17:26

I would urge you to read these verses and see what God is telling you. It's very good news. Christ has risen. All who believe on His name have been redeemed, by the grace of God alone.

Mercy triumphs over justice.

974 posted on 02/01/2008 4:24:36 PM PST by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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