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To: r9etb; Dr. Eckleburg
No, I don't think it's a waste of time. I was, rather, stating where the logic leads, if you insist on a theology which states that "works" have no effect on salvation. Because preaching the Gospel is "a work."

Protestants make a distinction between justification and sanctification and both are under the umbrella of salvation. Justification before God involves no amount of works and is strictly by the instrument of faith based on the perfect righteousness of Christ.

It is also important to note that the works component in sanctification comes with a decidely different motivation than the Greeks or Romans. For the Greeks and Romans the works component is motivated by a desire to acquire merits for final salvation. Those who believe in the doctrines of Grace approach works from a different motivation. Having an assurance that they have been reconciled to God through a work of someone else outside of themself, Christ, the motivation for works is one of extreme gratitude.

I believe the Scripture record is clear that our justification is none of our own doing and works reflect a truly reconciled sinner.

855 posted on 01/31/2008 6:46:21 PM PST by the_conscience (McCain/Thompson 08)
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To: the_conscience
For the Greeks and Romans the works component is motivated by a desire to acquire merits for final salvation.

This is false, or at least very misleading. We are saved by adoption in the family of God. There are no amount of works you can for anyone to earn adoption into their family. It has to depend on their gracious invitation.

Real Catholics and real Orthodox are here, and are perfectly capable of presenting our own beliefs.

866 posted on 01/31/2008 7:17:29 PM PST by Campion
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To: the_conscience
Justification before God involves no amount of works and is strictly by the instrument of faith based on the perfect righteousness of Christ.

You appear to be suggesting that Jesus didn't mean it when He said, I tell you, on the day of judgment people will give account for every careless word they speak, for by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." (Matt. 12:36-37)

And you're perhaps suggesting also that Jesus didn't really mean it at the end of the Parable of the Pharisee and the tax collector, when He said of the tax collector who approached in repentance, I tell you, this man went down to his house justified, rather than the other. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but the one who humbles himself will be exalted." (Luke 18:14)

Jesus makes quite clear throughout the Gospels that, although God alone can grant eternal life, we nevertheless bear some responsibility for how we will be judged. Jesus says many times, in various ways, "you must do...." (The Sermon on the Mount is full of examples of this.)

And finally, consider the alternative: suppose we are in no way responsible for the way we are judged. It means that nothing we do matters -- and it means that there's no such thing as sin, the entire Bible notwithstanding.

What generally happens at this point, is one of your group attempts to engage in a Scripture contest. I give one example, you give a counter-example, and it goes back and forth, both sides quoting passages to support their position. But of course, the fact that one can have a Scripture contest at all, shows the weakness of your position: you're left having to explain why all of those statements of Jesus don't really mean what a plain reading would suggest.

The more defensible position of is simply to acknowledge that God is sovereign, and we are responsible; and simply accept that what's in the middle is a mystery.

In any case, we must always behave as if what we do matters. Otherwise ... well, I think you can fill that one in for yourself.

869 posted on 01/31/2008 7:26:55 PM PST by r9etb
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