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To: ScubieNuc
In post 785, you write, quoting someone (I suppose at CARM):

Some say that water here means baptism. But that is unlikely since Christian baptism hadn't yet been instituted.

In fact, Christian baptism is being instituted in this very verse. This is what institutes Christian baptism, straight out of the mouth of the Savior.

If this verse did mean baptism, then the only kind that it could have been at that point was the baptism of repentance administered by John the Baptist

This is false. John 3:22ff makes it clear that Jesus' disciples were baptizing under his supervision (it is ambiguous on whether Jesus himself baptized; 3:22 says he did, 4:2 says he didn't, but they may not have been talking about exactly the same time period), and they were not administering the baptism of John the Baptist, because John says clearly in Jn 3:27-30 that Jesus' ministry is superior to his own.

It is my opinion that the water spoken of here means the water of the womb referring to the natural birth process.

Jesus is not really in the business of teaching obstetrics. But look at this sentence carefully. See the highlighted words?

In an earlier post, you wrote:

When your beliefs or doctrines are supported more by 'writtings of early Church fathers' then the Scriptures, you are at least making them equal to Scripture, if not elevating them to be more important then Scripture.

What about when your beliefs are supported mostly by the opinions of a website like CARM?

Aren't you doing precisely what you reject us for doing?

Concretely, consider this contrasting opinion about John 3:5:

"And He says, 'Unless a man be born again' -- and He adds the words 'of water and the Spirit, -- he cannot enter into the kingdom of God'. He that is baptized with water, but is not found worthy of the Spirit, does not receive the grace in perfection. Nor, if a man be virtuous in his deeds, but does not receive the seal by means of the water, shall he enter into the kingdom of heaven. A bold saying, but not mine, for it is Jesus who has declared it."

That's St. Cyril of Jerusalem, writing around AD 350 (Catechetical Lectures, No. 3, paragraph 4).

What makes your opinion, or CARM's, superior to, or more trustworthy than St. Cyril's? Why should I believe them, and reject him? How is CARM's opinion about Scripture any less a "tradition of men" than St. Cyril's? How is what you are doing any more "scriptural" than what we do?

Don't think that I'm picking on you in particular, BTW. This conundrum is present throughout Protestantism. For example, in the 1662 edition of the Anglican 39 Articles, we read:

"General Councils may not be gathered together without the commandment and will of Princes. And when they be gathered together, (forasmuch as they be an assembly of men, whereof all be not governed with the Spirit and Word of God,) they may err, and sometimes have erred, even in things pertaining unto God. Wherefore things ordained by them as necessary to salvation have neither strength nor authority, unless it may be declared that they be taken out of holy Scripture."

Being as I don't have to worry about the King's good men battering down my door on account of my Romish sympathies ;-), I will ask the obvious naughty question:

If councils "do err," and "have erred," where's the guarantee that the 39 Articles don't err? What's to guarantee that they don't err precisely in saying that councils err, for that matter?

As for their appeal to Scripture, that simply begs the question: who gets to decide, authoritatively, what Scripture means? "Unless it may be declared that they be taken out of holy Scripture" ... declared by whom? With what authority? And what if I disagree with his declaration?

The whole claim is simply a recipe for anarchy, which inevitably circles back on itself and does the same thing it accuses Catholics of doing: it goes to fallible men to decide what infallible Scripture is really telling the Church. The only real difference is that you choose your own "Pope", and mine is chosen for me.

807 posted on 01/31/2008 4:31:25 PM PST by Campion
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To: Campion
What about when your beliefs are supported mostly by the opinions of a website like CARM?

That's not an accurate statement. I was in a hurry and I knew CARM seems to follow pretty closely to what I believe so I cut and pasted their answer. I don't believe what I do because of CARM, but because of what the weight of Scripture says.

If this was the only verse about baptism, I can understand your way of looking at it, but it isn't the only verse about baptism. I don't have time this morning to lay out all of the verses about baptism, but you'll see a number of things about it.

Belief, repentance, or conversion occurs before it. Paul was happy he didn't baptize. The thief on the cross made one of the most simple confessions of faith without baptism and Jesus said he would be with Jesus in Paradise. Baptism is a covenant sign just like circumcision was. In Acts 10:44-46 you see that people become saved or indwelt with the Holy Spirit before being baptised. Finally, if a person says that baptism is necessary for salvation they are adding a work to the completed task of salvation.

Aren't you doing precisely what you reject us for doing?

No, because the primary weight of my reason is based in what the Scripture says, not what men say.

What makes your opinion, or CARM's, superior to, or more trustworthy than St. Cyril's? Why should I believe them, and reject him? How is CARM's opinion about Scripture any less a "tradition of men" than St. Cyril's? How is what you are doing any more "scriptural" than what we do?

Nothing makes mine, CARM's, or St. Cyril's opinion valuable unless it is supported by Scripture. I look at the Catholic approach and idea of baptism and I see less Scriptural support for it and more 'tradition or ideas of man' support for it.

As for their appeal to Scripture, that simply begs the question: who gets to decide, authoritatively, what Scripture means?

Well obviously you have to have some authority. Ultimately we would agree that the final authority is God or the Holy Spirit. If you disagree with what your local church says about what a certain portion of Scripture says, then you need to study both sides seriously. Raise your concerns, and pray earnestly. If you are then convinced that your church is wrong, then leave and find one that you believe is more in-line with what you believe the Holy Spirit wants to teach.

The whole claim is simply a recipe for anarchy, which inevitably circles back on itself and does the same thing it accuses Catholics of doing: it goes to fallible men to decide what infallible Scripture is really telling the Church.

No, I've not seen anarchy but growth and learning. Growing up, my family attended various denominations (Baptist, Methodist, Evangelical, Pentacostal, etc.), while each denomination had certain secondary belief differences, they all taught basic Scripture study which resulted in salvation in Christ and taking care of others.

Now could there be a problem if you never accept that your understanding could be wrong and the church has to conform to your ideas 100%. Absolutely, but that hasn't been my experience. In my adult life, I have been part of a Baptist, Lutheran, and now a Wesleyan Methodist Church. I have never been in 100% agreement with all of the churches stances, but I have stayed, studied, asked, and learned in the process. I only left when I believed that the doctrines of the church could have negative impact on my children's ability to learn about God and His Word.

The only real difference is that you choose your own "Pope", and mine is chosen for me.

Not exactly. My Father is in Heaven and his guide is the Holy Spirit. He chose me long before I chose Him. I suppose there is a peace in trusting that your church hierarchy will always get things right, but I see that as slavery to other men's opinions and a recipe for laziness in studying what the Scriptures actually say. (I'm not saying that you or every Catholic is lazy, BTW.)
896 posted on 02/01/2008 4:57:28 AM PST by ScubieNuc (There is only ONE mediator between man and God....Jesus. 1 Timothy 2:5)
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