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To: kosta50; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; wmfights; Cvengr; HarleyD; ...
If this is sufficient "proof" for you, then you only prove what I have been saying all along: one must believe in order to find the Bible believable. In other words, a predisposition to accept everything in the Bible as true must pre-exist. That's the a priori (what you call "baseless") or blind faith (which you profess, but vehemently deny!).

Ah, this has a little different look to it. I take you to be saying that our belief is that the Holy Spirit zaps us with Biblical KNOWLEDGE and then when we later go read the scriptures we say "Yup, I already knew that". If so, then I disagree. When the Holy Spirit "zaps" what He does is to open our capacity to understanding the logical, reasonable, and common sense Biblical truths that were there all along. In our lost state we are unable to see these truths. They were foolishness to us because we were born fools. :) So, when the Holy Spirit touched me as a teenager, I was not instantly transformed into a believer. I was sent to the scriptures and then BECAME a believer because God's truth was showed to me as it was intended. THEN, it made sense.

Now, when you talk about a predisposition to accept everything (or at least many things, since there are always questions) in the Bible as true, I can live with that. That represents the real change that the Holy Spirit effected in us (heart of stone to flesh). Belief, though, has to be IN something. The word of God tells us what that something is.

So, I see your two statements as being very different. I think a priori, or baseless, faith cannot be true since there is nothing behind it. One would have to legitimize faith in anything else by the same criterion, nothing. I do not legitimize faith in anything else because I think Christianity is very different from other faiths. It makes different claims, its Holy Book is unlike any other, and its effect on the world is unmatched. The Holy Spirit changes a man's heart and leads him to true faith IN something real that is BASED on something real.

Let's face it, one day you woke up and were "touched" by the Holy Spirit, as you conveyed in a previous post, and He immediately "directed" you to the scriptures.

Close enough, yes, but at that moment I did not have faith. The Spirit LED me to faith, so it wasn't baseless. The Bible tells us that we should always be ready to give a REASON for our hope (faith), and also that we should confess our faith. That's not credibly possible is there is nothing behind it, if it is blind.

6,707 posted on 07/28/2008 4:47:42 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; wmfights; Cvengr; ...
I take you to be saying that our belief is that the Holy Spirit zaps us with Biblical KNOWLEDGE and then when we later go read the scriptures we say "Yup, I already knew that"

Whatever it is that "zaps" you (you really can't prove it's the Holy Spirit), it predisposes you to uncritically accept everything written in the Bible as written by God.

So, when the Holy Spirit touched me as a teenager, I was not instantly transformed into a believer. I was sent to the scriptures  

You were sent? Let's see, the Holy Spirit (allegedly) also directs you to quote a particular verse. Do you see a pattern there? Everything you do is not you doing it but God. You are just His puppet on a string. Do you ever take any responsibility for your actions, FK? Or is it always God? How convenient! You are an instrument of God!? I am beginning to believe that you really believe that!

Now, when you talk about a predisposition to accept everything (or at least many things, since there are always questions) in the Bible as true, I can live with that. That represents the real change that the Holy Spirit effected in us

So, when a Muslim accepts his faith, who "touched" him? And which one of you has a proof-positive caller ID to prove such nonsense? It's all hot air, I tell you, All hot air.

I think a priori, or baseless, faith cannot be true since there is nothing behind it.

That's right. That's how the Bible wants you to believe, like little children, no questions asked, just blind acceptance whatever the grownups tell you.

Naivete comes to mind, along with innocence that so many professional Bible thumpers have exploited. And, as regards making sense that you mention, it makes perfect "sense" to the child to be told that Peter Pan could fly, and the child truly believesit!

I do not legitimize faith in anything else because I think Christianity is very different from other faiths

Who are you to legitimize anything, FK? And what kind of a legitimate criterion is it to deligitimize something because it's different? I can see how slavery found a fertile ground on such Bible-breathed thinking.

It makes different claims, its Holy Book is unlike any other, and its effect on the world is unmatched

Different claims make something "legitimate" just because they are different??? How logical is that, FK? As for the effects on the world, 1.2 billion people are Muslims and growing while Christianity is dying in Europe and in many other parts of the world. If the scale is set straight, Christianity is only one among many human activities that impacted the world.  And then we have such legacies as the Crusades, the Inquisition, the 100-year religious war between Protestants and Catholics, the Bible-approved slavery, and what not. I agree that some of its effects are unmatched, but that can be both positive and negative. One thing Christianity certainly doesn't do is prove itself to be better than others.

If anything, Christianity is a colossal failure. Two thousand years after Christ came to redeem the world, the world remains cruel, hostile and merciless. In Europe, 6% of believers go to church on Sundays and in America the numbers of agnostics and outright atheists is doubling, while church attendance takes a nose dive. We live in a country that subscribes to Christianity in over 80% of the population, yet as a nation we live a secular life and in a society that is as un-Christian as it gets. Sex, violence and greed dominate the scene. America doesn't export Christianity. It exports weapons!

The Holy Spirit changes a man's heart and leads him to true faith IN something real that is BASED on something real.

What you just said is as "real" as unicorns on Jupiter. Your beliefs are real to you. They are not universally real.

6,750 posted on 07/30/2008 12:53:32 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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