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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; wmfights; Cvengr
Kosta: Well, Christians also had an agenda and an image to defend. And there is no reason whatsoever to claim that every conspiracy must be discovered.

FK: Yes, at the time those powerful, dedicated, devoted warriors for Christ were fully organized and plotting for a way to cover all this fraud about Jesus' death all up. There you go! :)

We don't know that for sure. But we don't know a lot of things otherwise assumed or presented as "facts" either.

Kosta: No, that's your interpretation. The sentence clearly says that those who believe and are baptized will be saved. Those who do not believe will be lost. Why would non-believers be baptized?

FK: Hundreds if not thousands of non-believing Orthodox are baptized every single Sunday, as infants. That does not save. If they become true believers later on, THEN they are saved, regardless of the baptism. The verse is consistent with that.

You are missing the point. Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins (the Creed: "I profess one Baptism for the remission of sins."). If there is any sin in us (original or not) it is removed by Baptism. At that point, the soul can ascend to heaven for the departed has no sin, and is no longer separated from God. In the case of children, the Church was never told what happens to the unbaptized, so we baptize them knowing they are free of any sin until they can assume responsibility for their transgressions (age of reason). 

Obviously, with adults it is a different story. All believers are baptized ("washed") before they enter the Church clean, hence those who believe and are baptized will be saved. Obviously it is not enough to just believe. But if you reject God, it makes no difference if you are baptized or not because you will not repent. 

Would you say that only those who are baptized can repent? 

Why can't an unbaptized adult convert just confess his sins to a priest and be OK? What sins does a water baptism cover that a confession and absolution cannot?

Original/ancestral. Not because we are somehow "guilty" of Adam's transgression, but because we inherited the consequence of his transgression (propensity to sin). You could say our "addiction" to sin, concupiscence, etc.

6,559 posted on 07/19/2008 11:53:41 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; wmfights; Cvengr
Would you say that only those who are baptized can repent?

If you mean baptized by the Spirit, then YES. If you mean water baptism, then NO. No one has the ability to repent without having first been baptized in the Spirit. However, whether one was water baptized before or after that happens is irrelevant. Baptists believe that water baptism is a sign of the repentance that has already taken place.

6,590 posted on 07/21/2008 11:24:10 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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