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To: Forest Keeper

***OK, if this passage is your answer to my question then I can only conclude that indeed you do think you will be deserving of Heaven if you have done enough good works by the time of Judgment. One is deserving of something if he has earned it. You do enough good works and then God owes you. It’s like a contract.***

I suppose that that is how one influenced by Calvin might read it. I see no contract; I see that we have responsibility to act in certain ways.

Matt 25:

He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34
Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
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For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
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naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
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Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
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When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
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When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
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And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’

Does this sound like a contract?

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17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
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For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
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a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
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18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
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He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
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And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

How about this?

I am afraid that you are sadly mistaken, my friend. There is the love of the Creator to the created; there is the unconditional love that He gives us.

But He will Judge us based upon our actions. This is not a piece of verse taken from here and grafted onto verse taken from there and sprinkled with a partial verse from somewhere else.

These are the words of the Lord Jesus Christ and they are plain and direct. This is no parable; there is no possibility of unintentionally misunderstanding these words.

Either you accept this chapter or you do not. It is plain and it is spoken to the entire world.

Matt 24:

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26 27 “Who, then, is the faithful and prudent servant, whom the master has put in charge of his household to distribute to them their food at the proper time?
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Blessed is that servant whom his master on his arrival finds doing so.
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Amen, I say to you, he will put him in charge of all his property.
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28 But if that wicked servant says to himself, ‘My master is long delayed,’
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and begins to beat his fellow servants, and eat and drink with drunkards,
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the servant’s master will come on an unexpected day and at an unknown hour
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and will punish him severely 29 and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.

Punishment is for misconduct. How can one be punished for something that one is not responsible for? Jesus says that one is given what one deserves.


6,527 posted on 07/16/2008 3:17:55 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr; kosta50; stfassisi; irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; wmfights
FK: ***OK, if this passage is your answer to my question then I can only conclude that indeed you do think you will be deserving of Heaven if you have done enough good works by the time of Judgment. One is deserving of something if he has earned it. You do enough good works and then God owes you. It’s like a contract.***

I suppose that that is how one influenced by Calvin might read it. I see no contract; I see that we have responsibility to act in certain ways.

I think we have responsibility too. The difference is in whether one thinks that responsibility comes from having been GIVEN something, or does it come from the expectation of getting something. If I get married, then I have a responsibility to be a good husband in response to God's gift to me of my wife. If I want an 'A' on a test, then I have a responsibility to study very hard for it. If I fulfill my responsibility, then I deserve the 'A'. There's a difference. One is earned.

I don't see how your quotes from Matt. 25 could be used to support either of our positions on this issue. The passage you quote has believers not even knowing why they were doing good things. I would say that it was because that's what their new, already-saved natures naturally led them to do. They wanted to please God, even if they weren't conscious of it every single minute. But for you, how can you tie their "unknowingness" into making free will decisions to keep a responsibility?

In your continuation, those on the left were damned because they bore no fruit, i.e. they had no true faith. Good trees bear good fruit and bad trees do not. Is it a Catholic position that there are some with absolutely true faith, who simply do not pass some threshold of good works, that is possibly unknowable, and are thereby damned to hell for that?

But He will Judge us based upon our actions. This is not a piece of verse taken from here and grafted onto verse taken from there and sprinkled with a partial verse from somewhere else.

Are you told anywhere how this will work? I mean, will this judgment be based on quality or quantity, or what? A work is a measurable thing, so I would think it only fair for one to know what is expected of him to get into Heaven. How much do you have to do? Jesus told the rich young man what he had to do. Do you have to do that too? I'm just trying to get an idea of how this system actually works in practice.

Punishment is for misconduct. How can one be punished for something that one is not responsible for? Jesus says that one is given what one deserves.

Sure, we are BORN deserving death. Does that sound unfair? If you could have anything you wanted, would you wish for God to be fair with you? :) Not me because even if we ignored original sin, then on my first sin I would be destined to hell forever, no excuses, no exceptions. That would be fair. I am thankful to God that this is not the end of it. He did the extraordinarily UNFAIR thing and sacrificed His Son so that the elect shall be saved. So, with all things considered, I'd say it more than balances out in our favor.

6,540 posted on 07/17/2008 8:35:37 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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