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To: Forest Keeper

***I don’t think the Bible says it went down that way. For one thing Pilate DID find Jesus guilty of “something”:

Luke 23:22 : 22 For the third time he spoke to them: “Why? What crime has this man committed? I have found in him no grounds for the death penalty. Therefore I will have him punished and then release him.”***

Why don’t we look at the whole of Luke 23?

Luke
Chapter 23
1
1 Then the whole assembly of them arose and brought him before Pilate.
2
They brought charges against him, saying, “We found this man misleading our people; he opposes the payment of taxes to Caesar and maintains that he is the Messiah, a king.”
3
Pilate asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?” He said to him in reply, “You say so.”
4
Pilate then addressed the chief priests and the crowds, “I find this man not guilty.”
5
But they were adamant and said, “He is inciting the people with his teaching throughout all Judea, from Galilee where he began even to here.”
6
2 On hearing this Pilate asked if the man was a Galilean;
7
and upon learning that he was under Herod’s jurisdiction, he sent him to Herod who was in Jerusalem at that time.
8
Herod was very glad to see Jesus; he had been wanting to see him for a long time, for he had heard about him and had been hoping to see him perform some sign.
9
He questioned him at length, but he gave him no answer.
10
The chief priests and scribes, meanwhile, stood by accusing him harshly.
11
(Even) Herod and his soldiers treated him contemptuously and mocked him, and after clothing him in resplendent garb, he sent him back to Pilate.
12
Herod and Pilate became friends that very day, even though they had been enemies formerly.
13
Pilate then summoned the chief priests, the rulers, and the people
14
and said to them, “You brought this man to me and accused him of inciting the people to revolt. I have conducted my investigation in your presence and have not found this man guilty of the charges you have brought against him,
15
nor did Herod, for he sent him back to us. So no capital crime has been committed by him.
16
Therefore I shall have him flogged and then release him.”
17
3
18
But all together they shouted out, “Away with this man! Release Barabbas to us.”
19
(Now Barabbas had been imprisoned for a rebellion that had taken place in the city and for murder.)
20
Again Pilate addressed them, still wishing to release Jesus,
21
but they continued their shouting, “Crucify him! Crucify him!”
22
Pilate addressed them a third time, “What evil has this man done? I found him guilty of no capital crime. Therefore I shall have him flogged and then release him.”
23
With loud shouts, however, they persisted in calling for his crucifixion, and their voices prevailed.
24
The verdict of Pilate was that their demand should be granted.
25
So he released the man who had been imprisoned for rebellion and murder, for whom they asked, and he handed Jesus over to them to deal with as they wished.

Pilate found Jesus guilty of nothing. He merely acceded to the the highly agitated Jewish religious authorities. Even Herod found Jesus guilty of nothing.

Pilate found himself in a bad situation and decided that if the nasty rebellious Jews would be pacified by trading one person for another, it was no skin off his Roman nose.

It does not say that any Jewish council found him guilty.

Luke 22:

63
The men who held Jesus in custody were ridiculing and beating him.
64
They blindfolded him and questioned him, saying, “Prophesy! Who is it that struck you?”
65
And they reviled him in saying many other things against him.
66
17 18 When day came the council of elders of the people met, both chief priests and scribes, and they brought him before their Sanhedrin.
67
They said, “If you are the Messiah, tell us,” but he replied to them, “If I tell you, you will not believe,
68
and if I question, you will not respond.
69
But from this time on the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the power of God.”
70
They all asked, “Are you then the Son of God?” He replied to them, “You say that I am.”
71
Then they said, “What further need have we for testimony? We have heard it from his own mouth.”

There were no formal judgements in council. Jesus was not found guilty of anything.


6,525 posted on 07/16/2008 2:41:40 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: MarkBsnr; kosta50; stfassisi; irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; wmfights; Alamo-Girl
Pilate found Jesus guilty of nothing. He merely acceded to the the highly agitated Jewish religious authorities. Even Herod found Jesus guilty of nothing.

The original point was whether Jesus was lawfully, or could have been lawfully tried and convicted of a capital offense. You offer all of Luke 23 in support of your position, which I guess is that He was lawfully found guilty and executed. Your own argument says Pilate found Him guilty of nothing, YET, he decided to kill Him as a favor. Do you consider this lawful? No, it wasn't. It was the equivalent of jury nullification, in which a jury throws out the facts and rules however it wants. That's what Pilate did. It was not lawful. And again, in the trial before Caiaphas, Jesus WAS found guilty contrary to law.

All around this there was sin everywhere. It was all through the sham trials, those who led them, the Jews themselves, the Roman guards, the floggers, those who carried out the execution, etc. Now, we can just suppose that all of these thousands of details all just magically came together by chance and independent human free will. OR, we might consider that God's hand was all over this and everything that happened was through His direct control and involvement. There are just too many details to have the whole thing left to chance.

Even if one tries to argue that God simply foresaw all this, then first one would have to say that God is just a stenographer, writing things down, and is not involved with the day to day lives of humans. Then, that person would have to say that the perfect poetic climax of the most innocent person who has ever lived suffering the ultimate humiliation possible was just by luck. What if Jesus died in the flogging (which many did), or what if He bled to death from the thorns, etc.? There are a hundred scenarios that would be "less" in Christianity than what actually happened.

It does not say that any Jewish council found him guilty.

So when the leader of the council says in effect, "what more do we need to hear, he has hung himself already?", then your conclusion is that no disposition was reached by the council? Well, since the Bible doesn't print a copy of any resolution or anything, I suppose we are left to infer what happened next. I happen to think that my inference is pretty reasonable. :)

The bottom line is that there simply can be no argument whatsoever that Jesus was treated lawfully and got a just punishment for His alleged violation of law. That doesn't fit the facts in any of the Gospels.

6,539 posted on 07/17/2008 7:07:18 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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