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To: MarkBsnr; kosta50; stfassisi; irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; wmfights; Alamo-Girl
Okay, I will grant that Joseph said that God used evil to accomplish good. But if we go from the OT to the New, Jesus speaks of Judgment and punishment for the evils that men do, not the doing of evil for good purposes.

Yes, that's true. I don't think at all that Joseph's brothers were "rewarded" for the evil that they did. God just used it. In addition, we have to remember that your side and mine have a fundamental disagreement on whether there is a such judgment solely for "reward" in Heaven. My understanding is that Apostolics believe there is only one subject of judgment, Heaven or hell. We believe there is another that is apart from that, to determine our rewards in Heaven based on our works.

The Crucifixion would have happened with or without lies, deceit, false trials etc. Did they not happen on a fairly regular basis anyway (I mean lies, deceit, false trials)?

WHAT??? :) Tell me how Jesus could have been legitimately tried and convicted of [name your crime] and then warranted the ultimate death penalty. How could that have POSSIBLY happened?

I am sure that the Romans DID put real live murderers, etc., to death for their crimes, and I also have no problem believing that some were put to death wrongfully. That's irrelevant. The point is that in Jesus' case virtually EVERY rule on the books was broken. That took an incredible amount of sin that could not have been coincidental. Jesus prayed for the cup to be taken away while still a free man, before any of this started. God's WILL clearly was for all of it to proceed as it did. It HAD to, for this was the MOST innocent man who ever lived! :)

6,495 posted on 07/15/2008 3:28:52 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper

Thank you so very much for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!


6,496 posted on 07/15/2008 6:06:30 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Forest Keeper

***The Crucifixion would have happened with or without lies, deceit, false trials etc. Did they not happen on a fairly regular basis anyway (I mean lies, deceit, false trials)?

WHAT??? :) Tell me how Jesus could have been legitimately tried and convicted of [name your crime] and then warranted the ultimate death penalty. How could that have POSSIBLY happened? ***

http://www.writing.com/main/view_item/item_id/1115584 says that:

“So, why would Pontius Pilate, who presided at the trial of Jesus, find him not guilty of a crime meriting death, yet hand him over to the Jews for crucifixion? Pilate realized that, to restore and maintain the political and religious stability of Judea, Jesus had to be executed. But, if a Roman prefect sentenced Jesus to death, Jesus would become a martyr, increasing the feelings of injustice and fueling the flames of revolution. Pilate needed Jesus to be crucified by his own people. In this manner, Jesus would still serve as an example of the consequences of questioning Roman authority without direct Roman involvement in his death — in fact it would be Pilate, the Roman prefect, who had recommended that Jesus be freed. Thus, Pilate demonstrated his shrewdness as well as his cruelty. A rabble-rouser was put to death and Roman hands were clean of the incident.”

The background leading up to this is interesting, as well.

***Jesus prayed for the cup to be taken away while still a free man, before any of this started. God’s WILL clearly was for all of it to proceed as it did. It HAD to, for this was the MOST innocent man who ever lived! :)***

Agreed.


6,497 posted on 07/15/2008 6:27:02 AM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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