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To: kosta50; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; savedbygrace
Well, contrast that to "I was in a trans and saw a vision....and wrote it down and claim it was from God."

So, is it your position that it is illegitimate for God to choose to communicate through dreams and visions? How about Joseph's dream in the Gospels, did that never happen?

Jesus never directed anyone to write anything down.

As Savedbygrace correctly observed, Revelation 1 is absolutely clear on the matter, and is not subject to varied interpretations among reasonable people concerning this issue. Revelation 1 is scripture, and one can either accept scripture or one can reject it.

The disciples didn't write anything down because they all expected the end of the world to be within their lifetime, so there was no need for it. ...... The writings came later when it became obvious that the Apostles, shall we say, "misunderstood" what Jesus meant when He said "some of you will not taste death" before I return (and they did so despite the Holy Spirit who will "teach you all things.").

What? Are you saying they became disillusioned and THEN wrote the Gospels and the rest of the NT? And all this DESPITE the HS??? That means they were completely on their own as far as you are concerned. Do you have any justification at all for these views since it seems that no Christian church, including your own as far as I can tell, backs them up?

FK: If that is not correct, then what sort of revelation are you referring to?

Christianity, Judaism, Menacheanism, etc. are revealed faiths. People who were instrumental in establishing these religions claimed revelation as the source of their "knowledge." Some of it may be philosophical, and some may be even empirical.

For instance, we can say that this world is not merciful by nature and conclude that mercy must be from "another world."

Likewise, we can observe the universe around us and the earth and conclude that "something" created all this. And since there is structure and order and "rules" that this creation was intelligent, and therefore from a being higher than and greater and more powerful than we are.

Is this what you call God's revelation? From all this would it be right to say that for you God's revelation to us is mostly or solely found in the observations we make for ourselves about the world around us? If so, I don't know how to square this with your earlier statements that unknowable God is only seen through blind faith. It seems like we might have a clash here between logic and blind faith. However, you may be saying that naming that "entity" that is the cause "God" is where the blind faith comes in. I still don't know what you call revelation, though.

6,328 posted on 06/27/2008 11:16:53 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; irishtenor; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock; savedbygrace
So, is it your position that it is illegitimate for God to choose to communicate through dreams and visions? How about Joseph's dream in the Gospels, did that never happen?

And what proof do you have that God uses dreams and visions to communicate and how does one know they are from God and not from the insanity inside one's head?

How about Joseph's dream in the Gospels, did that never happen?

Of course not. It "happened" right when it was needed for the Gentiles to accept the faith without having to go through Jewish customs and circumcision. Very convenient.

St. Paul also reminds us not to condemn anyone for what they eat. That was an essential part of making the new religion acceptable to the Gentiles.

The account of Peter's dream is in Acts, and Acts is intimately related to Paul, through his disciple Luke. So, it all has to do with making the new religion "just right" for the Gentile to accept.

As Savedbygrace correctly observed, Revelation 1 is absolutely clear on the matter, and is not subject to varied interpretations among reasonable people concerning this issue

It's not a matter of interpretation but of credibility. Jesus never told anyone to write down anything when He was on earth. Revelation borders on hallucination. If you want to treat hallucinatory experiences as eyewitness accounts, that's your prerogative.

My point was that those who witnessed Christ on earth never recorded anything like that from His mouth.

Revelation was written when it was necessary, given the context of where Christianity was at the end of the first century.

Are you saying they became disillusioned and THEN wrote the Gospels and the rest of the NT? And all this DESPITE the HS???

Not disillusioned [funny you should use that word, since it means they were under an illusion to begin with :)], but they realized that they misinterpreted what the Lord told them. Until then they were teaching the end was near and would come within their lifetime, because that's what they believed the Lord meant.

When they realized that this was not the correct interpretation (a sobering reminder that even the Apostles were not without error), they had no choice but to seek a better one.

Is this what you call God's revelation?

And what is God;s revelation, FK? Dreams and illusions and hallucinations in a trans?

I don't know how to square this with your earlier statements that unknowable God is only seen through blind faith

That's what the entire creationist philosophy is based on: observation. They call it evidence of a Maker, the evidence of God's existence. This observation of the universe around us is the pillar of faith that God is real.

6,333 posted on 06/28/2008 7:36:36 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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