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To: kosta50; MarkBsnr; stfassisi; aruanan; Dr. Eckleburg; irishtenor
FK: The Bible says the Holy Spirit does teach us "all things", but He uses different tools to do that.

Wrong. That is something men made up. The Bible doesn't say anything about "tools" or different methods. In fact, it says nothing of how the HS does that.

What? As Irish pointed out for one thing the Holy Spirit uses prophets to carry His message. In addition, He also teaches US DIRECTLY what to say, thus teaching:

Luke 12:11-12 : 11 "When you are brought before synagogues, rulers and authorities, do not worry about how you will defend yourselves or what you will say, 12 for the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you should say."

We also have this:

John 16:7-10 : 7 But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer;

How do you propose that Jesus keeps this promise if what you say is correct? In addition, by definitional implication, the Holy Spirit uses other Christians around us to teach us Godly truths. Since you are forced to agree with that, when we add the scriptures themselves we clearly have the Spirit using different tools.

John 14:26 says that the Spirit, whom the Father will send, will teach "you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you"

Here, again, Jesus is addressing specifically his disciples, specifically those that have actually witnessed Him in Person, not every Tom, Dick and Harriette. ...

In that case I will agree with you again that therefore it would be wrong to recognize any authority in your Church leaders, since Jesus only ever spoke to His disciples. :) None of your Church Fathers ever witnessed Christ, so they would be included in the group you list above. There is nothing even hinting at Apostolic succession here, THEREFORE, apparently according to your reading, it doesn't exist. :)

This doesn't apply to everyone. The only tools are the disciples who will bring faith to others through their word (cf John 17:20). In other words, the Church and its clergy.

The CLERGY'S word??? Well, I suppose that would make sense from the Apostolic point of view. From the same passage you reference:

John 17:9 : I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

When you read the whole passage, if you think that verse 20 only applies to your leaders, then you must also think that verse 9 does also, IOW, that Christ doesn't pray for you because you are part of the world. It is an odd result to agree with Apostolic theology, but it does seem forced. I disagree and say that Christ prays here for all of His beloved children, for they (we) are His. I suppose for Apostolics only your clergy are His? :)

6,239 posted on 06/16/2008 2:14:05 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper

***John 17:9 : I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.

When you read the whole passage, if you think that verse 20 only applies to your leaders, then you must also think that verse 9 does also, IOW, that Christ doesn’t pray for you because you are part of the world. ***

John is specifically referring to the disciples here. Just because He is concentrating specifically on one group of people doesn’t mean that He hates all others. This group is special. He picked them to follow Him and bring the Great Commission to the world.


6,241 posted on 06/16/2008 5:18:11 PM PDT by MarkBsnr ( I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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