***OK, maybe I should have known that. I suppose by extension then, you would say there are many people in hell who received God’s gift of saving grace. Of course we would say that’s impossible. It wouldn’t be saving grace if people in hell had it.***
Had it and rejected it. St. Athenasius said that the floor of hell is paved with bishops’ skulls. These bishops had it and then rejected it either at one time and never repented, or over longer periods of time in which they sunk into heresy or sin and never repented.
***I wasn’t talking about anything in Heaven. As I was using the term, salvation happens at the point of belief on earth, and I was talking about the discipline God metes out to us on earth. Any hardship we suffer may or may not be a discipline. There can’t be punishment in Heaven because there can’t be sin in Heaven.***
Are you saying that the elect will suffer here on Earth to one degree or another, but you cannot tell if it is God’s doing or not? I also thought that the Reformed believe that there are different levels or places in Heaven to which the elect are directed but I’m not that clear on this either.
***Wait a minute. :) A person has to ask? I thought that saving (enabling) grace was given to everyone and the trick was to accept it. Maybe that’s what you meant. I just wasn’t sure if there was an extra step in there I wasn’t aware of, i.e first you have to ask for it and then you have to accept it. :)***
As I said, an illustration. God gives His saving Grace to all; the acceptance is the ‘trick’. Perhaps the thief who asked was ‘baptized’ in another form rather than by water. Perhaps the Holy Spirit descended upon him. All we know is that: Luke 23:
39
Now one of the criminals hanging there reviled Jesus, saying, “Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us.”
40
The other, however, rebuking him, said in reply, “Have you no fear of God, for you are subject to the same condemnation?
41
And indeed, we have been condemned justly, for the sentence we received corresponds to our crimes, but this man has done nothing criminal.”
42
Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43
He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”
The thief asked Jesus to remember him and Jesus told him that he would be with Him in Paradise.
***Where does it say regardless of belief? I just don’t see how this first passage says anything about having true salvation and then losing it.***
It doesn’t explicitly say regardless of belief, but it doesn’t mention it either. If you have done evil, then you are lost.
***I don’t understand what you’re saying. We have always maintained that perseverance is part of salvation.***
A mechanical part only. It doesn’t mean anything, it seems more like an autonomic function like growing hair.
***Some adults convert to Catholicism. How do they repent for all prior sins, and given whatever that answer is what is the purpose of Baptism for them in that case? Wouldn’t that be “double counting”?***
Huh? Baptism is the acceptance of the Holy Spirit into the individual and is to include repentance for all sins to that point in time. The future is the future and the individual must then walk the Way. That is perseverence. Perseverence is not a free ride; it requires effort and constant vigilance, like the
Matt 10:
22
You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved.
This means that it is possible to fall away. Notice the sentence structure - the condition is enduring to the end, and the result is salvation. The Reformed reverse cause and effect and say that the salvation comes first and the result is endurance to the end.
So, we fail and therefore sin daily; it is incumbant upon us to repent of those sins, get up to our feet and continue on our clumsy journey along the Way.
No, there are many pastors, priests, and Bishops of all faiths who never had true faith in the first place. There is nothing magic about a vocation that guarantees true faith. Falling away permanently is strong evidence that there was no faith originally, or else Christ is a liar.
Are you saying that the elect will suffer here on Earth to one degree or another, but you cannot tell if it is God’s doing or not?
Sometimes, yes. A hardship can be a discipline from God, or it could be God allowing satan to act for other reasons. Sometimes it is reasonably easy to tell the difference, but sometimes not.
I also thought that the Reformed believe that there are different levels or places in Heaven to which the elect are directed but I’m not that clear on this either.
I know there are different rewards in Heaven that are judged based on the things we do down here, but I don't think I'm familiar with different "levels" in Heaven. Martyrs are apparently set apart somehow, but I don't know the particulars of how that works.
FK: ***I don’t understand what you’re saying. We have always maintained that perseverance is part of salvation.***
A mechanical part only. It doesn’t mean anything, it seems more like an autonomic function like growing hair.
God doesn't take chances with those He loves. I am the same way with my children.
Mark quoting: Matt 10:22 You will be hated by all because of my name, but whoever endures to the end will be saved.
This means that it is possible to fall away. Notice the sentence structure - the condition is enduring to the end, and the result is salvation. The Reformed reverse cause and effect and say that the salvation comes first and the result is endurance to the end.
It doesn't mean that, it is simply a true statement. By your reading Jesus sent out the twelve all alone: "Go at it and do your best, maybe I will see you in Heaven depending on how well you do". Jesus doesn't do that. The message of Christ is that He will ALWAYS be with them, even to the very end of the age. If anything, the Apostolic reading here is a criticism of Jesus.