ordain "1: to invest officially (as by the laying on of hands) with ministerial or priestly authority 2 to establish or order by appointment, decree, or law [Marriam-Webster's Dictionary]
Seems to me you are not only changing the common meanings, but inventing them. :) Convenient. Ordination contains is synonymous with command or expresison of authority in every instance.
I have never seen you address any of the arguments in that paper so I just assumed you couldn't refute any of the arguments. I suppose I am forced to continue to do so until I see otherwisep
Well, in all fairness, perhaps I should have and I apologize. If you still have a copy, please resubmit and I will make sure I respond.
My previous experience with Luther leads me to believe that he was not irrefutable.
No, I reject the premise of any comparison between God and man, and man and computer. It doesn't fit at all
And I reject your rejection! How's that for an FK argument? :)
No, not like a computer at all. Man has a will
But, it's God's will one way or another. That's what the Reformed believe. So, what good is it that you have a will if you are predestined to do as God wants you to do?
While God certainly made the serpent, the Bible says no where that God "commanded" him to go into the garden and do what he did
Well, is it the serpent's will or God's will working through the serpent? Or was God caught off guard? /sar/
God leaves him CLOSER to his born nature
which is God's creation! certainly that nature doesn't exist independent of God.
If you disagree that Adam wanted to sin, then who do YOU say forced him to sin?
In the Reformed theology, Orthodox Judaism and Islam, the answer is God. Or else God is not in control. :)
No, that can't be the case because for example: Jer 1:5 : "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
Then where does the "original sin" come in? Man's nature changed after the Fall in that man became mortal and all his offspring are mortal; that's what is meant by "nature."
Man does not create man, God does. Then our sin-nature is made by God intentionally! Then we are manufactured into sinners by God's own hands. I will use the FK argument here: I reject that.
i>God obviously set it up that way, since there was no requirement that Adam's sin be passed down, but by God's ordination.
Did you get that in the Bible?
I have been told a thousand times that God never interferes with the free will of men. When does He do so?
He doesn't interfere but He intercedes.
***Seems to me you are not only changing the common meanings, but inventing them. :) Convenient. Ordination contains is synonymous with command or expresison of authority in every instance. ***
ordain: 1. to appoint ceremonially to the Christian priesthood, 2. to destine, 3. to appoint or decree authoritatively. (Oxford American Dictionary)
All depends on what you read, it seems to me.
Kosta: ordain "1: to invest officially (as by the laying on of hands) with ministerial or priestly authority 2 to establish or order by appointment, decree, or law [Marriam-Webster's Dictionary]
Seems to me you are not only changing the common meanings, but inventing them. :) Convenient. Ordination contains is synonymous with command or expresison of authority in every instance.
LOL! As Irish alertly pointed out, my use of "ordain" MATCHES the second definition that you quote: "to establish ...... by ...... decree". Does God decree the rains?
Ps 147:7-8 : 7 Sing to the Lord with thanksgiving; make music to our God on the harp. 8 He covers the sky with clouds; he supplies the earth with rain and makes grass grow on the hills.
Who does He command for THAT?! :)
[Re: FK's post on pecca fortier] Well, in all fairness, perhaps I should have and I apologize. If you still have a copy, please resubmit and I will make sure I respond.
That is very fair of you and I appreciate the offer. To save bandwidth, here is a link to the original post:
IV. Sin Boldly: A Detailed Analysis
My previous experience with Luther leads me to believe that he was not irrefutable.
You're right, he wasn't irrefutable, especially since I'm a Baptist. :)
And I reject your rejection! How's that for an FK argument? :)
Objection overruled. :)
FK: No, not like a computer at all. Man has a will.
But, it's God's will one way or another. That's what the Reformed believe.
God's will dominates, but that doesn't take away from the fact that man's will is real.
So, what good is it that you have a will if you are predestined to do as God wants you to do?
It's good because we have THIS existence INSTEAD OF the existence of a computer or robot. I DO desire that God have control over me as much as I have control over this computer, but it would not occur to me to switch places with my computer. Huge difference. :) We alone can commune with God.
FK: While God certainly made the serpent, the Bible says no where that God "commanded" him to go into the garden and do what he did.
Well, is it the serpent's will or God's will working through the serpent? Or was God caught off guard? /sar/
It was God's will to knowingly let the serpent do the serpent's will. God could have snapped His fingers and stopped it cold at any point, but He didn't. When I say that God works through someone, it is only for good. It is a different mechanism when sin is ordained.
FK: God leaves him CLOSER to his born nature.
which is God's creation!
No, his born nature is sinful and, we say, "totally depraved".
Then where does the "original sin" come in? Man's nature changed after the Fall in that man became mortal and all his offspring are mortal; that's what is meant by "nature."
Original sin IS nature according to the Bible:
Rom 7:18 : I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
Rom 7:25 : Thanks be to God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Rom 8:5 : Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.
So, I think the change in nature is much larger than you suggest. Paul talks a lot about the sinful nature.
FK: Man does not create man, God does.
Then our sin-nature is made by God intentionally!
No, God makes a person and allows that person to be "infected", for lack of a better term, with the original sin that He ordained be passed down from Adam. I have no idea how the mechanics of that works. I could be wrong in that, but I base it on knowing that God creates us in the womb, and knowing that original sin is passed down, and knowing that God does not author sin. If those conditions are met and there is a better explanation I would be more than all ears. :)
FK: I have been told a thousand times that God never interferes with the free will of men. When does He do so?
He doesn't interfere but He intercedes.
What is the difference? How can God intercede without interfering? And any interference counts, even if it would be welcome by the person.