***So according to this part of the Catechism, there is no such thing as saving grace that actually NECESSARILY leads to salvation itself, it only helps the person to go forward and possibly achieve salvation through his own free will decisions.***
If you are not given God’s Grace, then you cannot be saved. If you are given God’s Grace, accept it, then you CAN be saved, sure.
***There is consequence for sins after salvation. These consequences can take any form.***
Such as? You are not very clear in differentiating hardships endured on Earth versus some sort of nebulous something or other in Heaven. What are the punishments that you think will happen in Heaven?
***But of course this doesn’t interfere with man’s sovereign will. So according to this God is finished when He leaves us on our own to decide for ourselves what to do next in our quest for salvation. This is what I was looking for, so thanks. :)***
Not quite. God doesn’t leave men alone - He nudges and pushes and interferes, but in the end, it is up to man to accept or deny God.
***That matches the Catechism. So there really is no such thing as “saving grace”. The best that God offers is “enabling grace”.***
Well, if you don’t have it, then you cannot be saved. The thief on the cross didn’t have it until the very end; it was of his own volition that he asked to receive it. The other thief didn’t. An illustration, anyway.
***Jesus spent most of the Gospels telling us if we do not obey him that we will lose our salvation??? :) Wow! I guess that makes Jesus a colossal LIAR in the rest of the Gospels! :) He says plenty of times things like “those who are saved will do this....”, but I have no idea where He even remotely says MANY times, as you allege, anything like that God will break His promise to true believers, presumably for failure to perform. ***
Let’s see what He said:
22
Nor does the Father judge anyone, but he has given all judgment to his Son,
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so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.
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Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life.
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Amen, amen, I say to you, the hour is coming and is now here when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
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For just as the Father has life in himself, so also he gave to his Son the possession of life in himself.
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And he gave him power to exercise judgment, because he is the Son of Man.
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Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice
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and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.
Those who believe in God and have done good will be resurrected and those who have done evil (regardless of belief) will be condemned. Liar?
2 Cor 5:
10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.
Matt 25:
31
14 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne,
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and all the nations 15 will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
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He will place the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
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Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
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For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,
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naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.’
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Then the righteous 16 will answer him and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink?
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When did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you?
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When did we see you ill or in prison, and visit you?’
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And the king will say to them in reply, ‘Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.’
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17 Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
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For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
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a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
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18 Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
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He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’
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And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Jesus does not lie. The Reformed appear to have left the mathematical operator “and” out of their vocabulary. You must fulfill all of God’s requirements, and not just the ones that you wish to acknowledge.
***The consequences of the Reformed are a Godly understanding and teaching of God’s Holy word, and a defense of God’s sovereignty and Holiness. :) In Reformed theology, the consequence of sin is death, just like the verse says, UNLESS, all sin has been paid for by a suitable sacrifice. Our Lord Jesus mercifully and willingly served as that sacrifice. It saddens me that some faiths try to take that away from Him.***
Jesus has paid that price and ransomed us all. He has offered to us a mighty inheritance; but not all will accept it.
***For example, imagine that you are soon passed the age of majority (say 18) and decide to become a Catholic. You take the classes and then are baptized. Now as I understand it, at that moment Jesus has paid for all of your sins up to 18, plus whatever counts for original sin. Is that right? Now, for the rest of your life you are on your own in paying for sins, so if you live to be 90 you and your priests will have taken care of all of those sins during that time. IOW, you don’t even have Jesus paying for half of your sins.***
Nice flights of fancy; that is not how it works.
We understand that there is no free ride so therefore life is a Way, a Path that we must tread. We must repent for our sins - all of them. But because we are inside Time, we cannot be absolved of sins ahead of time - that’s a very bad concept - because it would absolve the sinner not only of repentence for those very acts that will occur in the future, but also lead to the attitude of Martin Luther that one may sin boldy with no consequence to your soul.
***If Christ allows a sheep to fail to persevere, then He has let one slip through His hands. The Bible says that Christ pledges that won’t happen.***
Frogmarching again? Jesus and the Apostles say that we can fail and slip away. That is a sobering thought.
Bingo! Yet another works-based salvational tip from Christ in the New Testament! :)
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil. [2 Cor 5:10]
Even from Paul.
Mat 25: 31-46..."
More of the same....
But in all fairness, the Bible is somewhat wishy-washy about this too.
Salvation is works-based according to Ps 62:12 "for you render to each according to his works," and Prov 10:16, Jer 17:10, Eze 18:27, Mat 5:20, 12:37, 16:27, 19:17;, and 25 which you mentioned. (5/9 or 56% NT and 44% OT)
Faith-based salvation has no OT counterpart. It starts with Mark 16:16, then it contnues Acts 16:30 (mostly Paul), and the rest is Paul! (Rom 1:16-17, 3:20, 28, 4:2, 13, 5:1, 10:9, Gal 3:11-12, Eph 2:8-9, and Titus 3:5), and ends with with John 3:18, 36. (11 out of 14 or 79% Paul, 86% if you count Acts as Paul or Paul-based)
Cleraly, Matthew is out of sync with Mark and John and Luke/Paul, but no one will talk about that! :) Protestants have no problem quoting from the Psalms and Proverbs when nit suits them, but cleverly avoid those works-based verses because Paul claims God told him otherwise.
Clearly, the faith-based salvation is overwhelmingly a Pauline theology.
OK, maybe I should have known that. I suppose by extension then, you would say there are many people in hell who received God's gift of saving grace. Of course we would say that's impossible. It wouldn't be saving grace if people in hell had it.
FK: ***There is consequence for sins after salvation. These consequences can take any form.***
Such as? You are not very clear in differentiating hardships endured on Earth versus some sort of nebulous something or other in Heaven. What are the punishments that you think will happen in Heaven?
I wasn't talking about anything in Heaven. As I was using the term, salvation happens at the point of belief on earth, and I was talking about the discipline God metes out to us on earth. Any hardship we suffer may or may not be a discipline. There can't be punishment in Heaven because there can't be sin in Heaven.
FK: ***That matches the Catechism. So there really is no such thing as “saving grace”. The best that God offers is “enabling grace”.***
Well, if you don’t have it, then you cannot be saved. The thief on the cross didn’t have it until the very end; it was of his own volition that he asked to receive it. The other thief didn’t. An illustration, anyway.
Wait a minute. :) A person has to ask? I thought that saving (enabling) grace was given to everyone and the trick was to accept it. Maybe that's what you meant. I just wasn't sure if there was an extra step in there I wasn't aware of, i.e first you have to ask for it and then you have to accept it. :)
FK: ***Jesus spent most of the Gospels telling us if we do not obey him that we will lose our salvation???
Let’s see what He said: ....................
Those who believe in God and have done good will be resurrected and those who have done evil (regardless of belief) will be condemned. Liar?
Where does it say regardless of belief? I just don't see how this first passage says anything about having true salvation and then losing it.
2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.
The elect do good and the lost do evil in God's eyes. What has this to do with having salvation and losing it? I'm afraid it is the same with Matt. 25.
Jesus does not lie. The Reformed appear to have left the mathematical operator “and” out of their vocabulary. You must fulfill all of God’s requirements, and not just the ones that you wish to acknowledge.
I don't understand what you're saying. We have always maintained that perseverance is part of salvation.
We understand that there is no free ride so therefore life is a Way, a Path that we must tread. We must repent for our sins - all of them.
Some adults convert to Catholicism. How do they repent for all prior sins, and given whatever that answer is what is the purpose of Baptism for them in that case? Wouldn't that be "double counting"?