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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; Dr. Eckleburg
God Himself instituted circumcision, so if you want to call that pagan that is up to you. :) But the point is in its permanence. You can't undo a circumcision any more than you can unring a bell

Lots of tribes mutilated their bodies precisely for that reason: it cannot be undone. So, what you are saying is that God wanted man to mutilate himself as a permanent "seal" and yet Paul says circumcision we can do without? (of course he did, because the Gentiles would not have come in numbers; smart move).

Yet, Apostolics claim that they CAN undo the seal of the Holy Spirit, in clear violation of scripture

Where does the scripture say we cannot break the seal? BTW, you are wrong about not being able to undo the circumcision. Circumcision is actually reversable without surgery.

5,877 posted on 05/27/2008 9:14:15 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; MarkBsnr; Dr. Eckleburg
FK: "But the point is in its permanence. You can't undo a circumcision any more than you can unring a bell."

Lots of tribes mutilated their bodies precisely for that reason: it cannot be undone. So, what you are saying is that God wanted man to mutilate himself as a permanent "seal" and yet Paul says circumcision we can do without? (of course he did, because the Gentiles would not have come in numbers; smart move).

You call it mutilation, and God calls it a seal. It's a difference of opinion. Paul, as he was taught personally by Christ, said that under the New Covenant the important thing was to be circumcised spiritually, and that the Holy Spirit would be the seal:

Rom 2:25-29 : 25 Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised . 26 If those who are not circumcised keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised ? 27 The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

28 A man is not a Jew if he is only one outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.

Eph 1:13-14 : 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession — to the praise of his glory.

Paul was simply relaying what Christ told him. In the OT, God wanted the physical mark. After Christ it was no longer necessary. The same type of thing can be said of many practices.

Where does the scripture say we cannot break the seal?

See Eph. above. Is God's guarantee any good? If it is then God's seal cannot be broken by man. See also:

Rev 5:1-5 : 1 Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. 2 And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?" 3 But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. 4 I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5 Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."

Now, I know how much you like Revelation, :) BUT this treatment of a seal is absolutely consistent with how the people at the time treated seals. They could not be broken by anyone unauthorized. With the power of God behind the seal, that REALLY meant couldn't.

BTW, you are wrong about not being able to undo the circumcision. Circumcision is actually reversible without surgery.

I have no idea what that means, and I don't want to know. :) Doing something further in a physical manner cannot undo what was done first. In any event that would not apply to spiritual circumcision, which is ultimately what mattered anyway.

5,900 posted on 05/28/2008 8:26:07 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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