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To: kosta50
To know someone before birth in this flesh body means the soul has a history, it cannot be a figment of imagination.

Well, the standard pre-fab answer to this is that God is transcendental and therefore knows and sees everything as "present" (that "eternal [aoristic] present").

John 1:1 says 'IN the beginning', (that means Genesis 1:1), was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God. This was and is the purpose of the Church to know preach and teach the WORD or as some call it the Gospel... good news. Moses penned Genesis without his own personal foreknowledge up until he came of age to write the rest of the Torah. So what Moses penned would have come directly from the Heavenly Father if we this day are to have that instruction of the WORD or at most what we are given to understand.

There is no such thing as free will if God being transcendental and knows and sees everything as "present". It is Written that we were created for the pleasure of the Heavenly Father and given what misery chaos and insanity this world over does not paint a loving image of the Heavenly Father to oversee.

The other answer is historic and factual: pagans, Jews and Gnostics believed in the pre-existence of the souls. The Church doesn't. This was one of those points of departure of Christianity with these groups. Now, some cults, such as LDS, spout pre-existence of the souls, but that just makes them members of the same non-Christian club mentioned above.

Moses pens not one word regarding the creation of the devil but yet the devil was there in the Garden and beguiled Eve with knowledge of good and evil.... So when was the devil created as Ezekiel and Isaiah describe of him, and when did he turn evil and decided that he would be god and rebelled. There is nothing in the Bible or in historical record that presents evidence of the devil rebelling and taking with him a third of the stars also know as the sons of God since the Garden of Eden. Paul's words *foundation of the world* (Ephesians 1:4)are actually a verb meaning to cast down - overthrow. And according to Genesis 1:2 this took place before this flesh age.

Solomon described two different bodies this flesh one and the spirit/soul body in the book of Ecclesiastes and he says there is no remembrance of the former things in the flesh body.

According to Paul not all in his time believed in the pre-existence of the souls... and Paul used their countering beliefs to get them at each other so he could leave. As far as what other cults believe regarding pre-existence of the souls I have no clue, I get my instruction from the WORD.

2 Peter is a 2nd century fraud in my opinion, but it was very useful to the early Church, and now it would be difficult to go back and toss it away. It took the Church a long time to accept is as "inspired." I can see why.

I would not call II Peter a fraud, as that to me would be like saying the Heavenly Father, Christ as well as allllll those holy prophets Peter refers to are frauds as well.

That being said, your particular references has some important, even essential 2nd century Christian material: one is the fact that the expected second coming "before this generation will taste death" had to be redefined to an unspecified time in the future.

Christ listed the signs that would need be prior to his return and in the midst he said to learn the parable of the fig tree.

It is well known that early Chritsians did expect the second coming of the Messiah within their lifetime as the New Testament suggests. Dispelling these beliefs and leaving the door open was crucial to the survival of the the Christan sect, so I can see why some in the Church found 2 Peter necessary.

Based upon my study a generation has not passed since Christ left this earth, that has not thought they were in that generation. That is part of the reason why so many cults have power over so many through deception, just as Christ warned would be.

The book was also necessary because of its reconciliatory tone with Paul. The Pauline and Petrine factions of the Church were still at odds with each other despite claims to the contrary in Acts. So the sect took on Pauline garments but remained Petrine inside. Likewise, 2 Pet is asking people to be patient, to live righteous lives and trust that God will spare the righteous, etc. He reinforces this appeal with threats and imagery of a catastrophic end of the world. All this was needed to keep the faith going despite some setbacks.

Strange that Christ said that Peter would be the rock upon which the Church would be build and yet even the few words that Peter penned get such a slight of hand.

But I certainly cannot find any evidence of "pre-existing" bodiless souls in 2 Pet 3.

The soul has a body, Christ Himself demonstrated that in His visible to that group could go through a wall... Both exist, just that the flesh eye unless given that sight cannot see that dimension. The flesh is given but for a very short time and as it is written to be absent from this flesh body is to be present with the Lord. Even that rich man could see Lazarus in Abraham's bosom across that proverbial gulf and none of them were in flesh bodies.

5,468 posted on 05/09/2008 7:12:38 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Isa.3:4 And I will give children to be their princes, and babes shall rule over them.)
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To: Just mythoughts
To know someone before birth in this flesh body means the soul has a history, it cannot be a figment of imagination

The Jews, along with pagans and Gnostics, believed in the pre-existence of the souls, so verses such as Jer 1:5 reflect that belief. Paul's own teachings reflect that belief, which is why Paul was so near and dear to the Gnostics.

Moses pens not one word regarding the creation of the devil but yet the devil was there in the Garden and beguiled Eve with knowledge of good and evil..

What was in the garden was a serpent, the most cunning of all creatures. There is nothing to suggest it was the 'devil' or Satan. That's something people made up at a later date. The Jews did not know the 'devil.' Satan was a faithful angel of the Hebrew God, known only by his title (ha-satan), the accuser.

The devil, as the personification of all evil, is a product of the post-Babylonian Jewish belief influenced by Persian dualism. It wasn't part of Judaic belief before 400 BC, and then only among some sects.

I would not call II Peter a fraud, as that to me would be like saying the Heavenly Father, Christ as well as allllll those holy prophets Peter refers to are frauds as well.

2 Peter was written in the 2nd century, dear friend. It wasn't written by Peter.

Based upon my study a generation has not passed since Christ left this earth

Your study is ignoring that He is also quoted as saying that those who were actually living when He spoke will be alive when He returns. The "never-ending" generation theory was a necessary rationalization when it became obvious that all those who lived when Jesus spoke were dead. Thus, 2 Peter was a badly needed 'scriptural' evidence of this theory.

Strange that Christ said that Peter would be the rock upon which the Church would be build and yet even the few words that Peter penned get such a slight of hand

By all accounts, Peter never wrote anything that has been attributed to his name.

Even that rich man could see Lazarus in Abraham's bosom across that proverbial gulf and none of them were in flesh bodies.

There was no proverbial golf. They were both in Sheol, except that Lazarus was comforted and the rich man wasn't. The fact that Luke speaks of both being in Sheol tells me that early Christians (or at least those being instructed by Paul) did not believe any souls were in heaven, or that they had any concept of Christian heaven.

The soul has a body, Christ Himself demonstrated that in His visible to that group could go through a wall...

You seem to suggest that Christ resurrected spiritually and not bodily. The Bible, which you believe in, says that God made man out of dirt and then breathed his breath into him and he became human. Humanity, by biblical definition, is a union of body and soul. What you profess is Gnostic. Getting "instructions" from the Word, as you say, tends to do that to many. That's why Christ established a Church, lest everyone drift away according to his own understanding.

5,489 posted on 05/10/2008 8:12:23 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodox is pure Christianity)
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