Infants carry as much "guilt" on account of Adam's abuse of his God-given freedom as a drug-addicted infant carries "guilt" on account of his drug-abusing mother—exactly zilch. But the infant suffers the consequences of both!
Baptism is the sacrament of adoption into the Church. We die unto ourselves and are re-born into Christ. Those baptized in the Orthodox Church are carried or led around the baptismal font three times and the congregation is singing St. Pau's words "For as many of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ." [Gal 3:27]
Those who have sinned, and repented, their sins are forgiven and erased and they enter into the Body of Christ like an infant.
Baptism is restoration to grace. Some have more baggage to lose than others. Baptism is the supreme act of divine mercy (forgiveness) and love (adoption) accomplished by the Holy Spirit.
Of course, this must be accompanied by faith. For adults, that includes the reciting the Creed and rejection of Satan (exorcism). For infants, their godparents witness for them and oblige themselves to do everything they can to teach and raise that child in faith. It is an awesome obligation in Orthodoxy.
We consider godparents more important than natural parents, for if they raise the child properly in the life of the Church, chances are the biological parents will have none of the problems we see in kids raised without God in their lives.
We DO carry moral guilt from our very beginning: Ps 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."
Again, this is Judaism. Verse 6 is unintelligible!. And just in case you say "it's in the Bible," well so is verse 19 "Then there will be righteous sacrifices, whole burnt offerings to delight you; then bulls will be offered on your altar." Go ahead, kill a cow...it's in the Bible.
Contrast this with our Lord's words "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these." [Mark 10:14]
Obviously, Christ didn't think they were examples of iniquity. Night and day.
Or consider this comparison to the OT "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist the evil one (πονερω, same word as at the end of the Lord's Prayer—a title denoting the crafty or evil one). If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." [Mat 5:38]
Night and day, FK.
And not only that, our penalty at conception is the same as Adam's: Rom 5:12 : Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned
This was addressed in a response to a recent post by HalreyD, who either didn't read it or didn't understand it. The wording in Paul's verse 5:12 is subject to interpretation. The native Greek speakers interpreted it one way and the non-native speakers the other way.
Your version of the Bible is telling you something the Greeks never read and understood in that fashion. St. Augustine's Greek was poor. He made a number of known translational errors. Unfortunately, such errors led to erroneous theology.
Rom 5:19 : For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous
He speaks of "many" not all. How does this square with his other statement that "none are righteous, not one?"
Besides all it says is that the consequence of Adam's sin is death I still don't understand how you differentiate between being innocent, but under the consequences of sin, from true moral guilt
Moral guilt comes from willful wrongdoing. Infants did nothing willfully wrong. They simply inherited the consequences of Adam's sin, a fallen human nature that will lead them into sin
When you really think about it, drug-addicted infants are really victims, as is the whole humanity when it comes to Adam's fall. This is why God decided to have mercy on us. While we are born innocent of any wrongdoing, we are bound to commit wrongdoing because our fallen nature inherited from Adam drives us to that end.
Well, I genuinely hope it works that way in Orthodoxy. Sadly, it doesn't have that kind of practical effect in the few Protestant denominations with which I am familiar. The commitment isn't taken as strongly as I think it should be. But then, we could say that's what the bio-parents are for. :) But then again, every little bit helps.
FK: "We DO carry moral guilt from our very beginning: Ps 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."
Again, this is Judaism. Verse 6 is unintelligible!.
What is unintelligible about it? :
Ps 51:6 : Surely you desire truth in the inner parts; you teach me wisdom in the inmost place.
David makes a comment about his status at birth, and then he comments on what God wants (for him) now. He is saying that when God teaches those who are able to hear, that He does not scratch the surface and leave it to the person to figure it out. Rather, God teaches directly into the soul and imparts His truth there, so as it will take the greatest root. Verse 6 is NOT talking about God imparting to babies, IMHO, because for one thing verse 7 is clearly back to current time.
Contrast this with our Lord's words "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these." [Mark 10:14] Obviously, Christ didn't think they were examples of iniquity. Night and day.
Are you kidding? Look at the very next verse:
Mark 10:15 : I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it."
Does this not say what Jesus is talking about? He is talking about faith and what kind it should be. It should not be a conditional faith that so many adults would be apt to come up with so as to retain their own autonomy against God. Instead, Jesus says, it should be complete and pure faith, such as that of a child.
Or consider this comparison to the OT "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist the evil one (πονερω, same word as at the end of the Lord's Prayer—a title denoting the crafty or evil one). If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." [Mat 5:38]
In that case you have Jesus telling us not to resist satan when he attacks us. In fact, you're telling me that Jesus' command to us is to invite satan to tempt us, isn't that right? :) I am afraid that God's word in the OT survives just fine this attack. :)
Rom 5:19 : For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
He speaks of "many" not all. How does this square with his other statement that "none are righteous, not one?"
Easily. The key word or phrase here is "made" or "were made". It will be some form of "kathistemi", which means constituting or establishing. Now, consider the two men being compared. Adam, by his sin, established that many (all men) would live under his doing, they would be lost in original sin, or merely wounded, or whatever. The point is that it applied to everyone. However, by Christ's doing only some (many but not all) would wind up saved. That is what Christ established. Both Adam and Christ "completed" God's will for them in full, as always with God.
Now, yes, the sentence does use "many" in two different ways within it, and it's easy to throw rocks at it, but that's not really hard to get around when we just open our eyes and see for ourselves what the real world looks like! :) The real world MATCHES this explanation. For example, would you like to argue that Adam's sin did NOT affect everybody, or in the alternative a universalist belief??? :)
And, the "none are righteous" statement in Rom. 3:10 is clearly referring to those who are not yet saved. As everyone is born he is not righteous. As Paul extensively teaches elsewhere, those who are chosen by God are imputed with Christ's righteousness, by His act on the cross, and are thus fit for Heaven (justification).
While we are born innocent of any wrongdoing, we are bound to commit wrongdoing because our fallen nature inherited from Adam drives us to that end.
And I asked before if you thought it was inevitable that Adam's sin would MEAN that every person capable would, as a fact, sin. That is my view and you appear to agree above. However, I have gotten different messages from other(s) on this ping list. :)