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To: Forest Keeper; annalex; stfassisi; Kolokotronis; HarleyD
My understanding of Orthodoxy is that no one is necessarily "doomed" from original sin. That is, anyone could (potentially) just choose to ignore (resist) it, and never sin. Of course we Reformers say that is impossible, so I was just wondering where Catholicism fell on that continuum

No, the Eastern Church never knew or beleieved Augustinian semi-Manicheaen error of the guilt of the original sin. The Eastern Church always knew of the consequecnes of the ancestral sin, which is death, to which all mankind was captive until Christ died on the Cross and resurrected, "trampling death by death."

The East always taught that man is born terminally ill, not guilty, in need of a physician. Our souls and our will are sick, which influences our choices.

We are restored (healed) by the Holy Spirit through the mysterion (sacrament) of Baptism and enabled to choose God, but He doesn't make our choices. It was Christ, dying on the Cross, and not man on his own, who made that possible.

The Curch in the East always taught that it is the Holy Spirit who leads and some who have been restored follow Him, willingly, while others follow the devil, by choice. The latter condemn themsleves, by choice.

Chirst is Risen!

5,208 posted on 04/28/2008 9:50:55 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodox is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; annalex; stfassisi; Kolokotronis; HarleyD
FK: My understanding of Orthodoxy is that no one is necessarily "doomed" from original sin. That is, anyone could (potentially) just choose to ignore (resist) it, and never sin.

No, the Eastern Church never knew or believed Augustinian semi-Manicheaen error of the guilt of the original sin. The Eastern Church always knew of the consequences of the ancestral sin, which is death, to which all mankind was captive until Christ died on the Cross and resurrected, "trampling death by death."

But if we carry no guilt because of original sin, then what sins are forgiven through infant baptism? Doesn't your side believe that baptism is for the forgiveness of sins?

We DO carry moral guilt from our very beginning:

Ps 51:5 : 5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

And not only that, our penalty at conception is the same as Adam's:

Rom 5:12 : Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—

Rom 5:19 : For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

I still don't understand how you differentiate between being innocent, but under the consequences of sin, from true moral guilt. Sin requires a payment, but if we are innocent then Christ did not die for our sins under your theology, He only died for Adam's sin. Is that how you see it?

Christ is Risen!

Voistinu Voskrese! :)

5,282 posted on 05/01/2008 11:44:02 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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