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To: kosta50; stfassisi; MarkBsnr; irishtenor; Mad Dawg; Kolokotronis; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; ...
Is it not the Reformed teaching that God predestined them to sin? Was it not the will of the Reformed God that they sin?

God predestines everything that is a part of His plan. In some cases, that has included sin. God does not approve of sin as a general principle.

Was it not the purpose of the reformed God's creation of Adam and Eve that they sin?

No, none on my side have ever said that. Only your side says that. :)

Did they have a choice (according to the Reformed theology)?

Yes, but the conditions were such that it was inevitable that they would sin. God did not "move" them to sin. He set the conditions. We do not "blame" God for planting the tree, making its fruit pleasing to the eye, and letting the serpent in the Garden. God did all this, knowing ahead of time what would happen.

FK: "My DESIRE is not to do anything without God, i.e., on my own."

How do you know that is your desire when you and all the Reformed claim that God changed your heart (without your consent), and the Holy Spirit hijacked your mind and soul?

I know for sure that it was the desire of my new heart, and also for sure that it was not the desire of my old heart. God took the old away and replaced it with the new (2 Cor. 5:17). I'm sure that many Christians would feel violated at such a prospect, believing they were plenty good and righteous enough all by themselves, but we thank Him for it everyday. :)

5,196 posted on 04/28/2008 3:15:42 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; stfassisi; MarkBsnr; irishtenor; Mad Dawg; Kolokotronis; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; ...
God predestines everything that is a part of His plan. In some cases, that has included sin. God does not approve of sin as a general principle

That's like saying "I hate sin, but sometimes it comes in handy...I don't like to steal, but I send my kids to steal for me." How virtuous is that? We don't believe in the same God.

Kosta: Was it not the purpose of the reformed God's creation of Adam and Eve that they sin?

FK: No, none on my side have ever said that. Only your side says that

Really? So, for what reason, if not God's desire to fulfill His "plan," did they fall, a ccording to the reformed theology? Were they not predestined to fall for the glory of God as your side says? In other words, the sin of the world was introduced, predestined, created, for the gory of God? God "needed" sin in order to be glorified?

Kosta: Did they have a choice (according to the Reformed theology)?

Yes, but the conditions were such that it was inevitable that they would sin.

The sin was a consequence of their limited freedom; it was their choice to disobey.

God did not "move" them to sin.

No, He didn't. They chose to sin.

He set the conditions. We do not "blame" God for planting the tree, making its fruit pleasing to the eye, and letting the serpent in the Garden. God did all this, knowing ahead of time what would happen.

If God planted the tree in order for Eeve in and for the serpent to desieve her, then God's <>intent was to make sure they sin and He succeeded. This is like me setting up conditions for my child to fail in shcool and then kick him out of the house for failing.

Where is Christ in this? Where is Virtue?

I know for sure that it was the desire of my new heart, and also for sure that it was not the desire of my old heart.

But you make it sound like the heart is not really yours. It's either devil's or God's but not yours.

5,200 posted on 04/28/2008 12:49:39 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodox is pure Christianity)
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