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To: annalex; Mad Dawg; MarkBsnr; jo kus; kosta50; stfassisi; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; blue-duncan; ...
Eph 2 says the same thing: that works do not produce grace. It does not say that works do not produce faith.

What??? :) Here is the passage we know so well:

Eph 2:8-9 : 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Is your argument, based on this, REALLY that works do not produce grace BUT works DO produce faith??? By the standards of your interpretation, I can claim the truth that God saves every third person with a "W" in his name. My evidence? The Bible says nothing, EXPLICITLY, against it. :)

5,121 posted on 04/25/2008 5:37:47 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; Mad Dawg; MarkBsnr; jo kus; kosta50; stfassisi; HarleyD; Dr. Eckleburg; ...
works do not produce grace BUT works DO produce faith???

Works can strengthen faith, absolutely. That is the meaning of the Unprofitable Servant parable, Luke 17.

The text in Ephesians says that grace is the gift of God and not a product of works, so the glory of it is not ours. Faith is the instrument by which we receive grace. Works is something we are to "walkk in". Your translation, not surprisingly, obfuscates this passage.

8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God; 9 Not of works, that no man may glory. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which God hath prepared that we should walk in them. (Douay)

8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9. Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (KJ)

8. ti gar chariti este sesosmenoi dia tes pisteos kai touto ouk ex ymon theou to doron 9. ouk ex ergon ina me tis kauchesitai...

Note that "of yourselves" (ex ymon) and "of works" (ex ergon) are in the same grammatical case, and both refer to grace, which is controlled by "by" (gar). Your translation made grace and works appear in parallel and controlled by "by", while separating "yourself" and "God" by making these two nouns controlled by different prepositions, contrary to the original grammar.

5,128 posted on 04/25/2008 7:44:55 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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