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To: kosta50; Mad Dawg; Kolokotronis
FK: "It appears that your approach is that nothing is IN the Bible until it is proved IN."

In absence of credible evidence, doubt is justified. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof. Credible evidence is crucial, FK.

And you have already testified that there IS no credible evidence for you, which leaves only, naturally, the extra-Biblical Church as your sole basis of faith.

We see evidence of all sorts of things; it is the cause-and-effect relationship that is crucial. Primitive man saw lightening and heard thunder and attributed it to God's anger. Others interpreted rumbling of a volcano to be of divine origin.

I'm not sure what your point is. If you believe in evolution, then presumably primitive man did not have ANY sort of revelation comparable to the scriptures. And even after the scriptures did begin with Moses, many misinterpreted them too. What has any of that to do with us?

FK: "However, I give the presumption to God's word instead of 21st century scientists."

Presumption is the word, FK. Yet that presumption turned out to be false on many an occasion. It doesn't mean it proves God wrong; it only puts in question what men wrote about God, claiming God spoke to them and through them!

Well, if ANYONE had ever credibly proved the Bible false, then I think there would be far fewer Christians on earth than there are. Of course there have always been critics of it since it was written, even part by part. However, by God's grace and truth none of them have been able to defeat it.

Simple logic also suggest that the Old Testament might contain some truth or less truth than the New Testament, not that all of it is untrue.

But Jesus speaks of the OT being true, so we would have to throw that statement out. Logic fails here because who would be in a position to say which parts of the OT are true (and the NT) and which parts are false? The hierarchy of the Church?

[On the first Passover:] Those who trusted that God would save them would have been saved with or without physical markers, FK!

Not if God said THIS is how it's going to work, which He DID! :) As the OT proves a million times, when God says something, He MEANS it.

The Egyptians were not given Moses' instructions to mark their homes; but if they did God would have known they were false markers.

Then maybe that's why God didn't bother notifying them. :)

We don't know if some Egyptians would have believed or not.

Yes, we do, by inference. God does not forsake the elect.

The early Church had difficulties reconciling the OT with the Gospels, for obvious reasons.

If the early Church was basically the same as the current Church, then that makes perfect sense. :) Yet, from the general Orthodox readings I have been showed, I would still say that there are many Orthodox who probably think to this day that the OT is very important to Christianity. It's just an impression.

5,014 posted on 04/21/2008 4:37:01 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; Mad Dawg; Kolokotronis
And you have already testified that there IS no credible evidence for you, which leaves only, naturally, the extra-Biblical Church as your sole basis of faith

No, I say that I have not see any credible evidence—yet! And as far as the "extra-Biblical Church" part, that's an oxymoron de jour. It depends what you consider the "Bible." The early Church, the original Church considered what you consider "Apocrypha" as part of the Bible, and included it in the canon. By removing part of the canon of the original Church, one cannot claim that same Church now being "extra-Biblical."

The second problem with your statement is that you seem to believe that the Bible "proves" (or is capable of "proving") the faith! It proves nothing, nothing more than the Koran proves Islam to be a "true" religion.

5,027 posted on 04/21/2008 8:00:54 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodox is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper; Mad Dawg; Kolokotronis
Well, if ANYONE had ever credibly proved the Bible false, then I think there would be far fewer Christians on earth than there are

Well, it's not that anyone has to prove the Bible false, but the burden is on the Bible to prove itself true, FK! Extraordinary claims require extraodinary evidence.

5,028 posted on 04/21/2008 8:09:11 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodox is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper; Mad Dawg; Kolokotronis
If you believe in evolution, then presumably primitive man did not have ANY sort of revelation comparable to the scriptures.

What is a revelation? To some tribal shaman, a thought occurred that the rumbling volcano might be an angry god and that something had to be done to appease him. To make his conviction "true" he presets it as something the volcano god revealed to him. And when various sacrifices failed to "tame" the angry "god," they believed they didn't do enough, and the "god" didn't hear they prayers. Sounds familiar, right?

5,029 posted on 04/21/2008 8:14:44 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodox is pure Christianity)
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To: Forest Keeper; Mad Dawg; Kolokotronis
Not if God said THIS is how it's going to work, which He DID!

No, the man who wrote Exodus says that God said that's how it's going to work. There is absolutely zilch proof that God said anything. We only have evidence that someone wrote claiming that God said something.

As the OT proves a million times, when God says something, He MEANS it

OT proves nothing unless you already believe it's true!

Yet, from the general Orthodox readings I have been showed, I would still say that there are many Orthodox who probably think to this day that the OT is very important to Christianity. It's just an impression

Most Orthodox are firm believers. As such, the OT is "true" because they already believe it is true.

5,030 posted on 04/21/2008 8:22:33 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodox is pure Christianity)
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