[stfassisi]

“”The Catholic Church, as far as I know, teaches that we are born with the consequences of the original sin (propensity to sin), not with the “guilt.”””

Correct

from the Catechism

405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence”. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

Thus we should understand

Reflecting theologically on the salvation of infants who die without baptism, the church respects the hierarchy of truths and therefore begins by clearly reaffirming the primacy of Christ and his grace, which has priority over Adam and sin. Jesus Christ, in his existence for us and in the redemptive power of his sacrifice, died and rose again for all. By his whole life and teaching, he revealed the fatherhood of God and his universal love.
(from Catholic Culture)

We entrust the infants to the mercy of God who is Love.

The infants are in the category of the Holy Innocents

[kosta50]

from the Catechism

Thank you, Brother.We agree that man is wounded, or sick (lacking in grae), and in need of a Physician. But he is not dead.

[B]ut human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence”. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle [Cath. Catechism]

Might as well call it Orthodox Catechism. :)

Here are some excerpts from one such Orthodox Catechism

"Sin was not ingrained in human nature. Yet the possibility to sin was rooted in the free will given to humans. It was indeed freedom that rendered the human being as an image of the Maker; but it was also freedom that from the very beginning contained within itself the possibility to fall away from God."

Out of His love for humans God did not want to interfere in their freedom and forcibly avert sin. But neither could the devil force them to do evil. The sole responsibility for the Fall is borne by humans themselves, for they misused the freedom given to them. ["The Fall]

Important point is: man cannot resist God's will, but God does not impose Himself out of love. The other is: we can resist Satan's will. Therefore, we can use God's freedom to resist the devil and come to God. Until Christ freed us to do so, because after Adam's Fall all mankind was held captive by death, we could not choose. Salvation, therefore, came on the cross: it set us free to come to God and follow in the footsteps of our Savior. He provided the light, the way and the truth for us to be able to do so. But, a loving God will only offer, not force.

What constitutes ancestral sin? Harley D continues to claim that the Orthodox "deny" it. We don't deny it, we simply teach what the Church taught before St. Augustine came along (and he is OUR Saint as well!). Here is what the Orthodox Church teaches, Harley D, so please remember:

"What constituted the sin of the first people? St Augustine believes it to be disobedience. On the other hand, the majority of early church writers say that Adam fell as a result of pride. Pride is the wall that separates humans from God. The root of pride is egocenticity, the state of being turned in on oneself, self-love, lust for oneself. Before the Fall, God was the only object of the humans’ love; but then there appeared a value outside of God: the tree was suddenly seen to be ‘good for food’, ‘a delight to the eyes’, and something ‘to be desired’ (Gen.3:6). Thus the entire hierarchy of values collapsed: my own ‘I’ occupied the first place while the second was taken by the object of ‘my’ lust. No place has remained for God: He has been forgotten, driven from my life." {"The Fall"]

The consequence of this was tragic. Everything collapsed. The Catechism continues:

"The forbidden fruit failed to bring happiness to the first people. On the contrary, they began to sense their own nakedness: they were ashamed and tried to hide from God. This awareness of one’s nakedness denotes the privation of the divine light-bearing garment that cloaked humans and defended them from the ‘knowledge of evil’. Adam’s first reaction after committing sin was burning sensation of shame. The second reaction was his desire to hide from the Creator. This shows that he had lost all notion of God’s omnipresence and would search for any place where God was ‘absent’." ["The Fall"]

We are ashamed of God and try to hid from him. This is what people do to this day!

"However, this was not a total rupture with God. The Fall was not a complete abandonment: humans could repent and regain their former dignity. God goes out to find the fallen Adam; between the trees of Paradise He seeks him out asking ‘Where are you?’ (Gen.3:9). This humble wandering of God through Paradise prefigures Christ’s humility as revealed to us in the New Testament, the humility with which the Shepherd seeks the lost sheep. God has no need to go forth and look for Adam: He can call down from the heavens with a voice of thunder or shake the foundations of the earth. Yet He does not wish to be Adam’s judge, or his prosecutor. He still wants to count him as an equal and puts His hope in Adam’s repentance. But instead of repenting, Adam utters words of self-justification, laying the blame for everything on his wife: ‘The woman whom Thou gravest to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate’ (Gen.3:12). In other words, ‘It was You who gave me a wife; it is You who is to blame’. In turn, Eve lays the blame for everything on the serpent." [The Fall"]

Thus, pride is what sealed their fall form grace; it does to this day.

"The consequences of the Fall for the first humans were catastrophic. They were not only deprived of the bliss and sweetness of Paradise, but their whole nature was changed and disfigured.

In sinning they fell away from their natural condition and entered an unnatural state of being. All elements of their spiritual and corporeal make-up were damaged: their spirit, instead of striving for God, became engrossed in the passions; their soul entered the sphere of bodily instincts; while their body lost its original lightness and was transformed into heavy sinful flesh.

After the Fall the human person ‘became deaf, blind, naked, insensitive to the good things from which he had fallen away, and above all became mortal, corruptible and without sense of purpose’ (St Symeon the New Theologian). Disease, suffering and pain entered human life. Humans became mortal for they had lost the opportunity of tasting from the tree of life.

Not only humanity but also the entire world changed as a result of the Fall. The original harmony between people and nature had been broken; the elements had become hostile; storms, earthquakes and floods could destroy life. The earth would no longer provide everything of its own accord; it would have to be tilled ‘in the sweat of your face’, and would produce ‘thorns and thistles’.

Even the animals would become the human being’s enemy: the serpent would ‘bruise his heel’ and other predators would attack him (Gen.3:14-19). All of creation would be subject to the ‘bondage of decay’.

Together with humans it would now ‘wait for freedom’ from this bondage, since it did not submit to vanity voluntarily but through the fault of humanity (Rom.8:19-21). ["The Fall"]

So, this is what the Orthodox Church teaches about the original sin, HD. Please remember it.

The East does not teach Pelagian heresy, as you allege, namely that man does not need grace. You will be hard pressed to find that in any Orthodox teachings!

The Orthodox Church does not agree with Blessed Augustine's reason for the Fall. Man abused his freedom and, as a consequence of that, lost it. Adam and Eve fell into a deep pit for which no one could come out. It was Christ who pulled us out of that spiritual grave and set us free. But, having our free will, nothing short of clinging to God stops us from jumping into it again all on our own, just as Adam and Eve did.

[Forest Keeper]

from the Catechism : 405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants.

Yeah, but what do Catholics really believe, is original sin, by itself, enough to condemn a man? This part of the Catechism does not appear to say so, but my understanding was that Catholics believe that men need a savior from conception. Is the official Roman Catholic position that no one needs a savior until the first mortal sin after reaching the age of reason? That would be news to me. Good Catholic Freepers have told me otherwise.