FK: I understand that you all see it that way. But it goes back to whether God has a duty to protect people from sinning under their adamic nature, OR is God free to let people sin without God taking the blame. Your side believes the former and mine the latter.
No, it has to do with what God "assigned" to each individual before foundation of the world according to the Reformed theology.
For example, let's say I was an average reprobate (meaning that God hadn't made much to me in the way of "positive" promises). Now, let's say He completely withdrew His protection from me such that I became a raving murderer.
According to the Reformed theology, God decided to withdraw His protection in that moment before the hypothetical you , indeed before the world even existed. God decided from eternity that you will go to hell, that you will be a murder, and He even assigned the day and the hour when this will happen, and nothing can change that.
I could easily become that if I was sufficiently without God
Sure, because the Reformed God doesn't want (the hypothetical) you, never did and never will. He only wants you in hell—and you will go to hell not because you are a murderer but because the Reformed God created you specfically to go to hell!
To complete the picture, this Reformed God wants to punish you because He wants you to become a murder! He decided before you existed that you shall commit murder on a given day and a given hour, and it's somehow all your "fault!" You are a goat, not because you want to be a goat, but because God made you a goat and it's somehow all your "fault." And no amount of prayer will change you into a sheep.
Now let's say that He decided to do that on a Thursday instead of a Tuesday. Is God responsible for anyone I kill on Thursday? I think your side would say "YES", it's all God's fault, He caused the evil by removing His protection. We don't see it that way.
You talk as if God is intervening in His rigidly preordained "plan." In fact this plan is so rigid that even God can't change it! You seem to oscillate between two incompatible visions of God: one who preordained the world in which everything happens exactly as He "planned," and one in which God intervenes and makes fine adjustments.
I got bad news for you, FK: if (the hypothetical) you commits a murder on a given day, it's because the Reformed God, and not you, decided that eons ago.
And "my" side will most definitely say "Yes," because you neither decide the day, nor is it really your will that leads you to commit murder but the Reformed God's will! Otherwise your side calls it a "weak" God.
No, it has to do with what God "assigned" to each individual before foundation of the world according to the Reformed theology.
How do you distinguish between the two? If God has no duty, as we believe, then He can't be blamed for ordaining that He would not protect certain individuals.
...... According to the Reformed theology, God decided to withdraw His protection in that moment before the hypothetical you , indeed before the world even existed. God decided from eternity that you will go to hell, that you will be a murderer, and He even assigned the day and the hour when this will happen, and nothing can change that.
If a part of His plan, then yes. So who is responsible for the murder I commit? I say I am. God had no obligation to create us sinless for life or without the potential for sin. Likewise, He has no obligation to protect us from the sin we will inevitably commit according to our nature.
To complete the picture, this Reformed God wants to punish you because He wants you to become a murderer! He decided before you existed that you shall commit murder on a given day and a given hour, and it's somehow all your "fault!" You are a goat, not because you want to be a goat, but because God made you a goat and it's somehow all your "fault." And no amount of prayer will change you into a sheep.
You make God sound masochistic in our eyes. :) It isn't so. He's just sovereign. All people are born "wanting" to be goats. God changes some of them, and they no longer want to be like that. In addition, goats have no use for true prayer, it doesn't occur to them. Goats are responsible for their goat actions in accordance with their goat natures.
You talk as if God is intervening in His rigidly preordained "plan." In fact this plan is so rigid that even God can't change it!
If God changed His plan, then that would admit mistake, and God would cease to be God.
You seem to oscillate between two incompatible visions of God: one who preordained the world in which everything happens exactly as He "planned," and one in which God intervenes and makes fine adjustments.
No, God makes no adjustments. Tuesday vs. Thursday refers to the original choice.
And "my" side will most definitely say "Yes," because you neither decide the day, nor is it really your will that leads you to commit murder but the Reformed God's will! Otherwise your side calls it a "weak" God.
No, it really is my will. God willed it first and set the conditions, but He did not force me to do anything. My free will chose to sin by murder, all by itself. I didn't hear voices from God, and if I was led by anyone it was satan, which we are predisposed to do when born.