As far as Job goes: One way to look at the story, a way which presumes that God chastises the ones He loves - a presumption for which there is good warrant, in life as well as in Scripture, is that Job, while not doing anything, so to speak, actionable, is still deficient in the spiritual gift of resignation (as am I) and in the understanding of the mysterious relationship between God and Justice (as am I).
So while He is blameless up until the loss of all that is dear to him, under fire, He accuses God of injustice and wishes that there were a go'el -- a champion who would plead his cause against God before some unimaginable higher tribunal.So God messes him over and brings him to his glorious repentance.
And this is not a huge problem for me, because Our Lady, while we also hold her "blameless", still seems to have needed to do a lot of pondering in her heart to understand what it meant that Her Son w as the Messiah and the Son of God.
We postulate the a full-of-grace = completely gracious person could do so without sinning, while Job, I think did mess up under fire.But it seems to me the point of the "set-up", the "backstory" is clear: bad stuff happens to people who do all the right things, here's a guy who did all the right things, and He lost all that was dear to him. And here's what happened afterwards. And what happens is that Job experiences what we Papists hold to be the "end" of life: the vision of God. And when he is granted that wonderful grace, his complaint vanishes. As, may it please God, I hope all my little petty natterings will one day.
Still, for the, in comparison with the majesty of the book of Job, small concern of what Paul meant when he said all have sinned, I would say the Book of Job would count on the side of the argument that claims that we don't need to read "all" in the Boolean sense.
That is most beautifully put, Mad Dawg. But it doesn't explain or justify the presumption that God tortures those he loves, those who fear him the most, those who avoid all wickedness, the upright. There is an underlying dose of sado-masochism in such theology, common to both Latin and Protestant communities. Compare it to the East, where St. Symeon the New Theologian says
"I neither fasted nor kept vigils, nor slept on bare floors but — to borrow the Psalmist's words — 'I humbled myself' and, in short, 'the Lord saved me.'" [On Faith, Philokalia, Vol 4)
The west believes God makes people suffer. The East believes God is mercy, God is the Comforter, not the torturer! The East holds that those who suffer do so voluntarily for the glory of God and thank God for the opportunity to suffer for faith. Now, speaking of what we are deficient in, I am certainly decifient in that.
Job is, first of all, Old Testament. To a Catholic or Orthodox that is a foreshadowing of truth like through the glass, dimly...Can we really discern God in the OT save through the likeness of Christ by asking ourselves where is Christ in all this? I don't see Christ making bets with Ha-Satan. Do you?
Let's look at Job 2:3 (my emphasis)
3. The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man fearing God and turning away from evil. And he still holds fast his integrity, although you incited Me against him to ruin him without cause." (NAB)
God repeats what Job 1:1 says, that Job is blameless and upright (in God's eyes, and God knows everything!), while admitting that Satan can incite God to destroy without case (I guess we could say "for the H&ll of it" no pun intended!).
Let's also try to understand Job in terms of what faith is. Our faith is a way of life. At least Orthodoxy is. As Kolo's One Who Has to be Obeyed says "they walk orthodox in Greece." That's why there are truly Orthodox countries. Their whole way of life, habits, vocabulary, culture in general reflects their faith.
In that mind frame, can you see someone subjecting one's model child to such a test as Job was subjected so God can boast about himself being supreme and to prove Satan wrong? Would a loving father ever do that to one of his favorite children?
Job would also imply that unless we are tested to the extreme as he was we cannot be sanctified. And in order to be tested one has to be upright and shun all evil. That would drastically reduce the number of candidates to enter the heaven to single digits imo