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To: Forest Keeper; irishtenor; MarkBsnr
To them, either man is in control of everything to do with himself or God is in control and creates evil. We know that neither of those is true. God is in full control AND man has a measure of free will, depending, as you laid out

If God determined what out choices will be before the foundation fo the world, then we do not have a measure of free will, FK. We are (pre)destined to think and act as God programmed us. In your theology God lets us "feel" that we have free will, but in reality it is a deception. No matter how you turn it around, the Reformed God is either creating evil or deceiving.

4,723 posted on 04/02/2008 5:31:21 AM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodox is pure Christainity)
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To: kosta50; irishtenor; MarkBsnr
If God determined what our choices will be before the foundation of the world, then we do not have a measure of free will, FK. We are (pre)destined to think and act as God programmed us. In your theology God lets us "feel" that we have free will, but in reality it is a deception. No matter how you turn it around, the Reformed God is either creating evil or deceiving.

It depends on how one defines "free will". If what is absolutely real to us counts for anything, then we have some measure of free will. If God's perspective, which we cannot experience, is the only thing that matters then we do not. Notice that for your side's version of free will to be "real" it necessarily means that God follows the leadership of man. That would be true by definition. God sits back and watches who will accept Him, and then He writes their names in the Book of Life, etc. That does not describe to me an all-powerful and sovereign God, it describes a God who is weak, who mostly follows. An all-powerful God who just let things play out however they did would be one who cared comparatively LESS about His creation than a God who directed what happened.

4,895 posted on 04/11/2008 11:42:23 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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