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To: kosta50; MarkBsnr; Kolokotronis; annalex; irishtenor; Mad Dawg
FK: "For those of us who accept the Book of Revelation we recognize the symbolism and correspondence of the 12 judges and 12 tribes, but that does not translate into a view that Gentiles are shut out."

Well, you be the judge

I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.. [Rev 11:1-2]

Kosta, this is obviously referring to future events. If you interpret this to mean that in the future all Gentiles are shut out, then why are you bothering with Christianity? :) The "temple" probably refers to God's Church, which includes some Gentiles.

They [Latins] don't believe that the Bible itself is without human error.

Some may think that, but that's not what the Catechism says.

Our Latin brothers will also tell you that your side's reading of St. Paul is flawed, and their Eastern brothers will fully agree. +Paul is by no means "neglected" in the Apostolic Church. The Reformed Paul is.

As I have said, then Paul was the most cryptic writer in human history and rarely wrote what he really meant. Perhaps he foresaw that the Fathers would come along later and repair all of his errors.

The Bible tells us that the Spirit is God's power, not God Himself. The concept of a separate Hypostasis of one God, the Holy Spirit, was not preached even in the early Gospels.

No, the Bible is clear that Holy Spirit is a Person. From Got Questions:

We can know that the Holy Spirit is indeed a Person because He possesses a mind, emotions, and a will. The Holy Spirit thinks and knows (1 Corinthians 2:10). The Holy Spirit can be grieved (Ephesians 4:30). The Spirit intercedes for us (Romans 8:26-27). The Holy Spirit makes decisions according to His will (1 Corinthians 12:7-11). The Holy Spirit is God, the third “Person” of the Trinity. As God, the Holy Spirit can truly function as the Comforter and Counselor that Jesus promised He would be (John 14:16,26; 15:26).

4,604 posted on 03/30/2008 12:10:05 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr; Kolokotronis; annalex; irishtenor; Mad Dawg
[Rev 11:1-2] Kosta, this is obviously referring to future events.

Well, of course it's in the future...that's what prophesies are all about and Revelation is prophetic.

If you interpret this to mean that in the future all Gentiles are shut out,...

Given that the only place Revelation mentions Gentiles is exclusionary, that seems reasonable.

...then why are you bothering with Christianity?

Because I like it. :)

As I have said, then Paul was the most cryptic writer in human history and rarely wrote what he really meant. Perhaps he foresaw that the Fathers would come along later and repair all of his errors

The Apostolic Fathers, such as +Ignatius and +Polycarp and others were followers of +Paul. In fact the whole Church, East and West is! I think it is somewhat disingenuous of you to suggest that the very disciples who were ordained by Apostles in person would preach false doctrines of the same Apostles, or that they somehow "misunderstood" their teaching. Don;t forget they all spoke the same Greek too.

No, the Bible is clear that Holy Spirit is a Person. From Got Questions:

Of course—all of it is in the New Testament. The concept of Trinity is a Christian concept; the Jews refer to the Spirit of God as the power of God, not a person.

4,609 posted on 03/30/2008 1:26:42 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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